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greetings skywatchers this is Ryan

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Sprague the host of the summer in the

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skies podcast and I want you to join me

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at alien con alien con lands in

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Baltimore Maryland on November 9th 10th

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and 11th explore the unexplained with

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your favorite ancient aliens

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contributors UFO researchers and stars

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from hit sci-fi and SCI fact television

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shows and films I'll personally be

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giving my solo presentation and I'll

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also be joining my good friend and

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colleague Jason McClellan

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of rogue planet to moderate and take

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part in panel discussions throughout the

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weekend it's going to be a fun and

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informative weekend for families serious

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researchers into all curious minds alike

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and right now you can get an exclusive

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somewhere in the sky's discount on all

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tickets by visiting the alien Con comm

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slash register and using the code skies

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at checkout we hope to see you at the

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Baltimore Convention Center in November

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and now under the show today on

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somewhere in the skies we talked to

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military veteran retired police officer

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and UFO investigator James Clarkson you

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know they would tell you well they're

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their jobs to protect us and that

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there's some national security or

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intelligence reason why they need to

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conceal this story and or use it to

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manipulate the situation see we are also

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part of the game everybody you and I

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everybody in the UFO community we are

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also subject to manipulation and that's

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one of the hardest things is to know

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when you're being played

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[Applause]

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this is somewhere in the skies the

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brains bud

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[Music]

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welcome to summer in the skies I'm your

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host Ryan Sprague

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well October is faded into the past yet

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again and our Halloween series is over I

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hope you enjoyed a month of ghosts

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monsters and terrifying legends it's my

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favorite time of the year and I'm

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thankful for those who listened and

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joined me and now we are back to UFOs in

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full force he had been researching UFOs

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for decades it spoken to hundreds of

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witnesses uncovered once classified

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documents and had interviewed

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individuals connected to perhaps the

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most famous UFO event of all time the

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Roswell UFO crash after speaking at a

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conference about the secret government

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involvement into the UFO phenomenon and

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subsequent investigation of it an

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elderly woman approached him and told

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him you're right the government does

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know much more than it ever says

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publicly about UFOs he asked her how she

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knew she told him because I worked there

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what followed was a highly extensive

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interview with June crane a woman who

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worked at wright-patterson Air Force

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Base presumably where the wreckage of

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the Roswell UFO crash once ended up but

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this wasn't the only case that

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wright-patterson found itself wrapped up

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in and as June cranes story took light

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it was clear that it was a story or

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theory his interview with her was

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transcribed into a book titled tell my

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story June crane the Air Force and UFOs

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and today we talk to retired police

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officer turned UFO investigator James

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Clarkson about his time with June crane

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and what she witnessed touched and was

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told to keep secret about in relation to

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the Roswell incident and beyond James

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thank you so much for joining me

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today on somewhere in the skies oh it's

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an honor right sort of the reason I

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wanted to have you on today our main

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focus is your involvement with the June

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crane story but before we get to that I

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I want to sort of paint a picture for

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our listeners of you James so can you

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sort of tell us a little bit about your

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background in law enforcement and how it

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sort of evolved into your investigative

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work into UFOs how that your origin

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story as it were my origin story well I

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guess I would describe myself as someone

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who came out of the the turbulence of

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the 1960s grew up in a middle-class home

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south of San Francisco California I

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ended up attending high school in San

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Francisco a prep school I went on to the

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University of California and to be

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honest I was really sort of lost and

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there were full-blown riots going on on

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the Berkeley campus on occasion I

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watched cars overturned and burned

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police firing tear gas all that good

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stuff and yet as a young man I always

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had an interest in law enforcement i but

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that was not a popular thing with my

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peer group so I was kind of torn in two

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directions and things were not as clear

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to me then as they are now I ended up

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doing the one thing that I thought I

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would never do wanting to get away from

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everybody and everything that I knew I

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decided to make a clean break and I

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enlisted in the army and fortunately

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this was when the Vietnam War was

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winding down so they didn't have any

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money and I ended up going to basic

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training at Fort Ord military post

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school in Fort Gordon Georgia and then I

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was sent to Fort Lewis Washington which

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is now called Joint Base lewis-mcchord

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outside of Tacoma I was a plain clothes

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military policeman and I I loved my job

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in the military I have to say it was

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really intense lots of hours but I I

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learned basic Criminal Investigation

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skills

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backwards forwards and sideways

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I ended up getting out I became a

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reserve deputy sheriff I was then hired

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by a police department on the coast of

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Washington State the Aberdeen Washington

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Police Department I did a 20 year career

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there during that time I was promoted to

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the rank of sergeant about halfway

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through the 20 years I was a detective

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sergeant I supervised field training

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officers I was in charge of the fatal

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accident team I wore a lot of hats I

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blew out my knee I became a child abuse

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detective for two years they were never

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quite able to fund the program although

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the work was really intense very

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difficult but also very satisfying if

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you were willing to put up with a lot of

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frustration and heartache I ended up

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moving to Olympia Washington and I

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became a fraud investigator for the

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state working for the Department of

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Licensing and their professional

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licensing division 10 years later

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brought me to retirement age and in the

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meantime throughout this whole

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progression of investigative experience

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there was another aspect of my life that

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was there ever since I was little and

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everyone always asked me well what is

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your UFO experience you know expecting

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me to tell them what I saw or which

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extraterrestrial I met and the answer I

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always give people kind of jokingly is

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always a bridesmaid never a bride I have

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been swayed by the evidence of all of

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the fields of study that there are I

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cannot think of one that has a more

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fascinating history and cast of

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characters than ufology I mean it really

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does we've got the good the bad and the

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ugly we've got wild speculative

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fantasies that are put forth for a

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variety of motives people who want to

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make money people who are convinced of

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their own story without any evidence to

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back it up and

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we do have a group of fortunately highly

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educated highly experienced and

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professional people these are people

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like the gentleman you mentioned a while

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ago Peter Robbins people like Richard

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Dolan

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you know dr. J Alan Hynek from a long

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time ago we have so many people that are

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bright lights in this field and they are

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the people that are worth studying I'm

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sort of taking a street detective

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approach to ufology and all my

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involvement really started because of a

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radio program and I think if if you've

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ever had the experience the first time

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that your parents leave you alone for

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the weekend in charge the house and I

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happen to tune in kgo radio in San

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Francisco and this was in the mid 60's

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and a man named John G Fuller was

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debuting his brand new book called

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incident at Exeter yes I'm very familiar

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oh that's one of the greatest UFO

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stories ever and the part that I loved I

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was utterly fascinated is the encounter

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that the policemen have where the

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officer is called back to the station

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and picks up this traumatized hitchhiker

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and takes him back to the scene of his

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UFO encounter they pull up into the

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driveway of a farm and everything is

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painted white defenses white the

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buildings are white etc and all at once

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everything lights up blood red because

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of this 50-foot disc with scintillating

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lights that it's going around its

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perimeter and it comes down so low that

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the officer shoves the witness down the

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he drops to the one knee and starts to

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draw his sidearm at the same moment that

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the backup officer is arriving who yells

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at him don't you know don't like don't

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shoot and fortunately he doesn't well

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then of course the Air Force comes out

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with the explanation that

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these were just Stratotanker x' that

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were flying high overhead and refueling

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jet planes as part of some military

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exercise and the longer I thought about

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it I thought this is really interesting

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we put a policeman out on the street

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with a loaded weapon and we let him

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drive a car and his eyesight is so bad

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that he can't tell the difference

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between something that's coming down out

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of the air that might flatten him like a

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bug and a jet airplane flying overhead

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at 30,000 feet right so what's wrong

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with this picture and and sometimes in

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this field we get more information out

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of a denial than we do out of an

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admission and and in law enforcement

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investigation that's frequently true

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what a suspect tells you to deny that

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they were involved in the crime is often

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way more interesting than anything that

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they might tell you in an admission and

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so that would be my first reference in

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direct reference to Roswell because we

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have the US Air Force I forget how many

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explanations were up to we're up to at

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least six or seven official explanations

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for Roswell it's kind of like having

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literally having the elephant in the

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room and you someone has draped a

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bedsheet over him yeah you just go back

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to that Shakespeare quote you know that

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doth protest too much

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precisely they if if UFOs are not real

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and there's no why do they go to such

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absurd lengths to deny the validity of

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the story if we're just a bunch of

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tinfoil hat wearing nuts then nobody

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should care what we have to say you know

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you brought up Roswell and this this

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case never goes away James it seems to

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be making a resurgence again you know we

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have a new I get I shouldn't say new but

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a reboot of the Roswell television show

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coming out a fictional version I must

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say about the supposed alien that

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crashed and you know assumed he

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identities and integrated into society

275
00:13:21,780 --> 00:13:19,120
again this is all fictionalized

276
00:13:23,550 --> 00:13:21,790
obviously perhaps fictionalized well

277
00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:23,560
we'll get to that a little later but uh

278
00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:27,370
but we have this case that never seems

279
00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:30,450
to go away we have endless you know

280
00:13:34,740 --> 00:13:32,410
explanations by the airforce the

281
00:13:37,580 --> 00:13:34,750
military even the government about what

282
00:13:40,560 --> 00:13:37,590
happened there and it keeps changing

283
00:13:43,110 --> 00:13:40,570
which which fascinates me is we can't

284
00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:43,120
nobody wants to let this one go even the

285
00:13:47,490 --> 00:13:44,530
people who might have been involved with

286
00:13:50,190 --> 00:13:47,500
it that's right I guess that can sort of

287
00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:50,200
lead into what I really wanted to focus

288
00:13:55,260 --> 00:13:52,090
on with you today James is this

289
00:13:58,140 --> 00:13:55,270
fascinating story with Jeanne Crain

290
00:14:00,780 --> 00:13:58,150
so before we even get to who she is how

291
00:14:02,940 --> 00:14:00,790
did you first come into contact with

292
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:02,950
this woman well that's a function of the

293
00:14:07,530 --> 00:14:05,170
fact that I was a Aberdeen police

294
00:14:10,650 --> 00:14:07,540
officer on the southwest coast of

295
00:14:13,170 --> 00:14:10,660
Washington there is a large harbor grace

296
00:14:16,680 --> 00:14:13,180
harbor and you have to imagine a giant

297
00:14:19,410 --> 00:14:16,690
triangle you have Aberdeen Hoquiam and

298
00:14:21,630 --> 00:14:19,420
Cosmopolis our three cities that are at

299
00:14:26,670 --> 00:14:21,640
the mouth of two rivers which car over

300
00:14:28,950 --> 00:14:26,680
and the Hoquiam River and there is like

301
00:14:32,100 --> 00:14:28,960
a triangle on each side there are two

302
00:14:35,100 --> 00:14:32,110
more legs 25 miles to the north you end

303
00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:35,110
up in Ocean Shores 25 miles to the south

304
00:14:41,340 --> 00:14:38,530
you end up in Westport Washington well

305
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:41,350
in the interim of becoming a policeman I

306
00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:44,650
had kept secret the fact that I was

307
00:14:48,540 --> 00:14:47,050
interested in UFOs for the first several

308
00:14:51,210 --> 00:14:48,550
years of my employment because it's

309
00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:51,220
really not a good idea to come right out

310
00:14:55,580 --> 00:14:53,410
when you're a new policeman and tell

311
00:14:59,310 --> 00:14:55,590
people that you're interested in UFOs

312
00:15:02,280 --> 00:14:59,320
probably not going to give you a great

313
00:15:06,210 --> 00:15:02,290
reputation but after a few years I was

314
00:15:08,850 --> 00:15:06,220
established and I was able to give as

315
00:15:11,730 --> 00:15:08,860
good as I got and policemen are the

316
00:15:13,590 --> 00:15:11,740
worst gossips and the worst Kidder's in

317
00:15:17,310 --> 00:15:13,600
the world I mean to the outside world

318
00:15:19,170 --> 00:15:17,320
they try to present a solid front and if

319
00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:19,180
you threaten one of them obviously they

320
00:15:24,870 --> 00:15:22,330
lock up really quick to protect each

321
00:15:27,810 --> 00:15:24,880
other but amongst themselves they're

322
00:15:28,590 --> 00:15:27,820
vicious gossipers never let it be said

323
00:15:31,379 --> 00:15:28,600
that women

324
00:15:33,629 --> 00:15:31,389
gossip men work gossip just as bad as

325
00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:33,639
women do if not worse and police

326
00:15:39,870 --> 00:15:37,810
policemen are the worst and I say that

327
00:15:42,930 --> 00:15:39,880
because when you think about it they get

328
00:15:45,090 --> 00:15:42,940
paid to dig up dirt on everybody and

329
00:15:47,999 --> 00:15:45,100
they're they're merciless with each

330
00:15:49,769 --> 00:15:48,009
other so I eventually though let people

331
00:15:52,650 --> 00:15:49,779
know that I was interested in UFOs and

332
00:15:55,350 --> 00:15:52,660
the classic conversation occurred that

333
00:15:57,990 --> 00:15:55,360
has been repeated a bazillion times I'm

334
00:16:00,230 --> 00:15:58,000
sure you've had this you insert the

335
00:16:02,999 --> 00:16:00,240
subject of UFOs into a conversation

336
00:16:05,639 --> 00:16:03,009
either deliberately or accidentally and

337
00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:05,649
watch what happens oh my gosh man I've

338
00:16:13,259 --> 00:16:07,930
lost so many second dates because of

339
00:16:14,790 --> 00:16:13,269
that yeah I probably did too that's all

340
00:16:17,340 --> 00:16:14,800
right in the long run that's a good

341
00:16:20,009 --> 00:16:17,350
thing exactly what usually happens is

342
00:16:21,629 --> 00:16:20,019
there's the giggle moment and everybody

343
00:16:24,389 --> 00:16:21,639
you know makes jokes about little green

344
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:24,399
man people with tinfoil hats bla bla bla

345
00:16:31,290 --> 00:16:29,130
bla bla and then there's a calm and

346
00:16:34,019 --> 00:16:31,300
everyone somebody will look around

347
00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:34,029
nervously in the group and then they

348
00:16:39,210 --> 00:16:36,730
will say something like well I had a

349
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:39,220
relative or someone that they know

350
00:16:44,879 --> 00:16:42,970
really well and they trust them who had

351
00:16:47,639 --> 00:16:44,889
an experience and then they will go on

352
00:16:49,769 --> 00:16:47,649
to tell you a UFO story or they'll come

353
00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:49,779
right out and say that they did and the

354
00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:53,290
conversation it's like gravity it always

355
00:17:00,660 --> 00:16:57,250
comes out the same way and there is just

356
00:17:04,770 --> 00:17:00,670
too much smoke for there not to be some

357
00:17:08,159 --> 00:17:04,780
fire in all of this it's way it goes way

358
00:17:10,890 --> 00:17:08,169
too deep it's way too common now having

359
00:17:13,669 --> 00:17:10,900
said all that though I'm not going to

360
00:17:18,299 --> 00:17:13,679
tell you that I still understand what

361
00:17:21,270 --> 00:17:18,309
the underlying forces are in this field

362
00:17:24,140 --> 00:17:21,280
even after studying this for over 30

363
00:17:27,090 --> 00:17:24,150
years you know we could spend hours

364
00:17:28,350 --> 00:17:27,100
speculating on the various primary

365
00:17:31,110 --> 00:17:28,360
explanations

366
00:17:34,169 --> 00:17:31,120
well eventually I ended up meeting

367
00:17:37,230 --> 00:17:34,179
Joanne who fortunately is still my wife

368
00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:37,240
and we were together off and on for five

369
00:17:42,330 --> 00:17:40,690
years but at the time that I met her she

370
00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:42,340
was the children's library

371
00:17:47,940 --> 00:17:44,410
for the Timberland regional library

372
00:17:49,590 --> 00:17:47,950
system and one of the things that they

373
00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:49,600
always tried to do is to get more people

374
00:17:55,110 --> 00:17:52,690
to come into libraries and what they

375
00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:55,120
call adult evening programs programs

376
00:18:00,060 --> 00:17:56,890
that are aimed at teenagers and above

377
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:00,070
are very popular and will usually draw

378
00:18:05,010 --> 00:18:03,250
in numbers and UFOs turn out to be the

379
00:18:07,710 --> 00:18:05,020
hottest kind of program that you can

380
00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:07,720
have in a library in terms of getting

381
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:10,450
people in the door so she got me going

382
00:18:15,270 --> 00:18:12,970
on the notion of lecturing about UFOs

383
00:18:17,250 --> 00:18:15,280
that that's kind of funny because we

384
00:18:19,860 --> 00:18:17,260
originally got together because I helped

385
00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:19,870
her carry a box that was filled with

386
00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:23,290
odds and ends related to a Sasquatch

387
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:27,850
program to include a giant plaster cast

388
00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:31,210
sticking out of the box and when we got

389
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:33,730
to her car I saw that she had UFO books

390
00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:36,490
in the backseat and I thought I've died

391
00:18:40,890 --> 00:18:38,890
and gone to heaven this is this is just

392
00:18:45,260 --> 00:18:40,900
too good if I can't make a conversation

393
00:18:48,270 --> 00:18:45,270
with this woman I'm I'm gonna give up so

394
00:18:50,490 --> 00:18:48,280
fortunately it all worked out but along

395
00:18:53,370 --> 00:18:50,500
the way she got me to do library

396
00:18:57,210 --> 00:18:53,380
programs and one of the places that I

397
00:19:01,500 --> 00:18:57,220
went in 1993 was the Ocean Shores

398
00:19:03,690 --> 00:19:01,510
library and I gave my lecture I had

399
00:19:05,190 --> 00:19:03,700
slides I mean this is backwards I was

400
00:19:07,860 --> 00:19:05,200
still using thirty five millimeter

401
00:19:10,860 --> 00:19:07,870
slides and thought I was hot stuff

402
00:19:13,950 --> 00:19:10,870
because I had managed to supplement it

403
00:19:16,170 --> 00:19:13,960
you know with some well done pictures of

404
00:19:18,210 --> 00:19:16,180
UFOs and all of that now of course

405
00:19:21,780 --> 00:19:18,220
everyone is digital and nobody remembers

406
00:19:24,540 --> 00:19:21,790
what a color slide is so after I was all

407
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:24,550
done a very stern serious-looking

408
00:19:28,950 --> 00:19:26,410
elderly woman approached me and said

409
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:28,960
you're right the government knows all

410
00:19:34,070 --> 00:19:30,850
about UFOs and they're keeping it a

411
00:19:37,860 --> 00:19:34,080
secret and I said how do you know and

412
00:19:40,650 --> 00:19:37,870
she said because I worked there and I

413
00:19:42,330 --> 00:19:40,660
could tell I mean I'm I was in - I'd

414
00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:42,340
been a policeman for quite a few years

415
00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:45,130
by then and you kind of get used to

416
00:19:49,950 --> 00:19:47,290
reading people trying to decide are they

417
00:19:52,290 --> 00:19:49,960
serious are they faking are they joking

418
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:52,300
you know are they telling the truth are

419
00:19:56,730 --> 00:19:54,730
they lying what's going on here

420
00:20:00,600 --> 00:19:56,740
this woman seemed to be very truthful

421
00:20:02,610 --> 00:20:00,610
and she was dead serious and I said well

422
00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:02,620
would you tell me more I tried to draw

423
00:20:08,460 --> 00:20:05,650
her out and she looked at me and said I

424
00:20:10,799 --> 00:20:08,470
can't they'll come and arrest me and I

425
00:20:13,409 --> 00:20:10,809
think she was afraid that I might do the

426
00:20:16,770 --> 00:20:13,419
arresting because I did not keep it a

427
00:20:20,340 --> 00:20:16,780
secret that I was an off-duty detective

428
00:20:23,940 --> 00:20:20,350
sergeant giving a presentation in a

429
00:20:26,190 --> 00:20:23,950
library about UFOs and so I it was

430
00:20:27,990 --> 00:20:26,200
entirely possible in her mind that I

431
00:20:30,659 --> 00:20:28,000
could arrest her if she disclosed the

432
00:20:32,789 --> 00:20:30,669
wrong thing well I gave her my business

433
00:20:35,730 --> 00:20:32,799
card and I kept track of her because I

434
00:20:37,860 --> 00:20:35,740
was curious who she was I found out that

435
00:20:40,919 --> 00:20:37,870
she was a well known figure in the

436
00:20:43,980 --> 00:20:40,929
community she had led the charity drive

437
00:20:46,590 --> 00:20:43,990
to build a brand-new library there were

438
00:20:48,750 --> 00:20:46,600
some hot community issues out in Ocean

439
00:20:51,150 --> 00:20:48,760
Shores this was originally they were

440
00:20:53,610 --> 00:20:51,160
trying to promote legalized gambling and

441
00:20:55,770 --> 00:20:53,620
this was going to be a huge real estate

442
00:20:59,909 --> 00:20:55,780
project well the legalized gambling

443
00:21:02,760 --> 00:20:59,919
never happened and eventually it turned

444
00:21:05,220 --> 00:21:02,770
out to be a great place for people to

445
00:21:07,950 --> 00:21:05,230
have resort homes but it never took off

446
00:21:09,690 --> 00:21:07,960
the way they had planned so but there

447
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:09,700
were very wealthy people out there and

448
00:21:15,330 --> 00:21:12,730
June had stood up fit and gone toe to

449
00:21:17,730 --> 00:21:15,340
toe literally with somebody who was

450
00:21:21,900 --> 00:21:17,740
connected with the mob she got in this

451
00:21:24,870 --> 00:21:21,910
guy's face kind of lady that she was she

452
00:21:28,950 --> 00:21:24,880
him back down from anybody but what

453
00:21:32,090 --> 00:21:28,960
nobody knew was what her life was like

454
00:21:37,590 --> 00:21:32,100
when she was young so we have to

455
00:21:41,130 --> 00:21:37,600
flash-forward to 1997 1997 is a really

456
00:21:44,070 --> 00:21:41,140
important year for UFOs it's extremely

457
00:21:46,980 --> 00:21:44,080
important not only because of the UFO

458
00:21:49,169 --> 00:21:46,990
events that occurred that year but

459
00:21:53,659 --> 00:21:49,179
because of back to what I mentioned

460
00:21:56,430 --> 00:21:53,669
earlier the government response is so

461
00:22:02,730 --> 00:21:56,440
interesting and you gotta think back and

462
00:22:06,790 --> 00:22:02,740
remember that July of 1997 is the 50th

463
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:06,800
anniversary of the Roswell UFO crash

464
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:10,970
I didn't go but I know from people that

465
00:22:18,690 --> 00:22:15,290
I've met that it was so crowded with UFO

466
00:22:22,360 --> 00:22:18,700
people in Roswell that they had to hire

467
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:22,370
off-duty policemen from all over New

468
00:22:27,220 --> 00:22:25,490
Mexico to do traffic control so I mean

469
00:22:28,930 --> 00:22:27,230
it was a big and you couldn't get a

470
00:22:33,570 --> 00:22:28,940
motel room anywhere if you didn't

471
00:22:38,380 --> 00:22:33,580
already have one forget it I I wanted to

472
00:22:41,410 --> 00:22:38,390
recontact June and in 1997 the

473
00:22:43,660 --> 00:22:41,420
opportunity presented itself but you got

474
00:22:48,010 --> 00:22:43,670
to think back to earlier in the year

475
00:22:51,430 --> 00:22:48,020
March 13th of 90 1997 we have the

476
00:22:54,610 --> 00:22:51,440
Phoenix lights the Phoenix lights is

477
00:22:58,150 --> 00:22:54,620
another event that I put on the same

478
00:23:00,730 --> 00:22:58,160
level of magnitude as Roswell in UFO

479
00:23:03,220 --> 00:23:00,740
history and there are many reasons for

480
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:03,230
that one of which was that I attended

481
00:23:07,780 --> 00:23:05,810
the UFO conference in McMinnville Oregon

482
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:07,790
several years ago three or four years

483
00:23:14,110 --> 00:23:11,170
ago and it was devoted entirely to

484
00:23:16,390 --> 00:23:14,120
presentations by people who had key

485
00:23:20,740 --> 00:23:16,400
knowledge related to the Phoenix lights

486
00:23:23,590 --> 00:23:20,750
and I was absolutely spellbound by that

487
00:23:26,050 --> 00:23:23,600
it was it that was a great that was as

488
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:26,060
much of a revelation to me as Roswell

489
00:23:31,450 --> 00:23:28,970
has been so I I don't think this point

490
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:31,460
was lost on the secret keepers that on

491
00:23:42,010 --> 00:23:36,010
March 13th of 1997 an extremely large

492
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:42,020
real UFO triangular-shaped flew over the

493
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:45,770
central corridor of Arizona and I

494
00:23:50,740 --> 00:23:47,210
believe that there was a government

495
00:23:54,100 --> 00:23:50,750
response a very strong government

496
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:54,110
response in fact Peter Davenport from

497
00:23:59,650 --> 00:23:56,810
the national UFO Reporting Center his

498
00:24:01,480 --> 00:23:59,660
theory is that happens to be the same

499
00:24:03,940 --> 00:24:01,490
night by the way if you go back and

500
00:24:07,330 --> 00:24:03,950
check the news you'll find out that

501
00:24:10,450 --> 00:24:07,340
President Bill Clinton supposedly

502
00:24:13,420 --> 00:24:10,460
tripped on some stairs and was then was

503
00:24:16,900 --> 00:24:13,430
grabbed by the Secret Service and rushed

504
00:24:18,190 --> 00:24:16,910
back to Washington DC for emergency knee

505
00:24:21,909 --> 00:24:18,200
surgery

506
00:24:24,070 --> 00:24:21,919
Peter Davenport's theory is if he ever

507
00:24:26,529 --> 00:24:24,080
met Bill Clinton the first question he

508
00:24:29,139 --> 00:24:26,539
would ask it is mr. president will you

509
00:24:31,479 --> 00:24:29,149
please raise your pant leg he thinks

510
00:24:34,060 --> 00:24:31,489
that there's no scar because there was

511
00:24:37,779 --> 00:24:34,070
no surgery because it was just a cover

512
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:37,789
story and the cover story was that the

513
00:24:46,450 --> 00:24:44,090
UFO event in Phoenix was so major and it

514
00:24:49,889 --> 00:24:46,460
was clearly obvious that this was an

515
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:49,899
unearthly technology on a grand scale

516
00:24:58,659 --> 00:24:55,970
that they had to scramble jets they

517
00:25:01,599 --> 00:24:58,669
decided not to you know fire on this

518
00:25:04,269 --> 00:25:01,609
thing and as a result of their military

519
00:25:06,999 --> 00:25:04,279
assessment of the potential they moved

520
00:25:10,330 --> 00:25:07,009
the United States up the DEFCON scale

521
00:25:12,879 --> 00:25:10,340
and that meant that by protocol they had

522
00:25:15,999 --> 00:25:12,889
to grab the president and get him into a

523
00:25:18,279 --> 00:25:16,009
secure facility interesting you know

524
00:25:20,529 --> 00:25:18,289
it's fascinating I mean this it's a big

525
00:25:23,349 --> 00:25:20,539
deal now of course a lot of this is pure

526
00:25:26,710 --> 00:25:23,359
speculation we can't document it but it

527
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:26,720
it certainly plays out right all right

528
00:25:32,499 --> 00:25:29,330
so we have work back to we're back to

529
00:25:35,979 --> 00:25:32,509
that being the the kind of backdrop for

530
00:25:38,919 --> 00:25:35,989
the year 1997 for some reason along

531
00:25:40,599 --> 00:25:38,929
about June of that year we're going to

532
00:25:44,009 --> 00:25:40,609
end up with too many June's in the story

533
00:25:48,129 --> 00:25:44,019
but I can't so in the month of June in

534
00:25:51,869 --> 00:25:48,139
1997 the Air Force announces that they

535
00:25:54,460 --> 00:25:51,879
are publishing a book the book is titled

536
00:25:57,220 --> 00:25:54,470
Roswell case closed

537
00:25:58,629 --> 00:25:57,230
and you can still get copies of it I've

538
00:26:00,879 --> 00:25:58,639
got one over here on the shelf

539
00:26:02,619 --> 00:26:00,889
pretty thick book from what I remember

540
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:02,629
yes yeah it's something like that well

541
00:26:06,749 --> 00:26:04,850
interestingly enough I I actually

542
00:26:10,299 --> 00:26:06,759
interviewed the guy whose work

543
00:26:14,109 --> 00:26:10,309
supposedly was the basis for their new

544
00:26:16,570 --> 00:26:14,119
explanation and he is angry because he

545
00:26:20,139 --> 00:26:16,580
was a career Air Force officer who took

546
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:20,149
his work with parachute dummies very

547
00:26:26,259 --> 00:26:22,850
seriously and they used the whole

548
00:26:30,070 --> 00:26:26,269
parachute dummy thing to explain alien

549
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:30,080
bodies at Roswell right that and project

550
00:26:34,580 --> 00:26:31,530
mogul so

551
00:26:37,460 --> 00:26:34,590
that's the text of this book so the book

552
00:26:41,090 --> 00:26:37,470
comes out and of course because it's the

553
00:26:43,690 --> 00:26:41,100
air force and because UFOs are really a

554
00:26:46,010 --> 00:26:43,700
hot subject that year the x-files was

555
00:26:48,530 --> 00:26:46,020
also going full-bore

556
00:26:49,250 --> 00:26:48,540
so the x-files had now become household

557
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:49,260
word

558
00:26:55,460 --> 00:26:53,010
you've got UFOs on everybody's mind

559
00:26:57,350 --> 00:26:55,470
you've got the Phoenix lights the secret

560
00:26:59,360 --> 00:26:57,360
keepers know they're in trouble they're

561
00:27:01,640 --> 00:26:59,370
coming up on the 50th anniversary of

562
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:01,650
Roswell so when they published their

563
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:04,890
book Roswell case closed its blasted all

564
00:27:11,980 --> 00:27:08,810
over CNN it's the big story I remember

565
00:27:15,650 --> 00:27:11,990
out in Ocean Shores Washington an

566
00:27:18,980 --> 00:27:15,660
elderly lady named June happened to be

567
00:27:22,580 --> 00:27:18,990
watching the news and she got really

568
00:27:25,610 --> 00:27:22,590
angry and I also think that the other

569
00:27:29,060 --> 00:27:25,620
backdrop to this is that her cancer had

570
00:27:31,630 --> 00:27:29,070
come back and she never did quite admit

571
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:31,640
to me how precarious her health was

572
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:35,010
until the very end but she called me on

573
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:38,010
the phone with no warning I have not

574
00:27:42,770 --> 00:27:40,650
heard from this woman in four years the

575
00:27:46,970 --> 00:27:42,780
phone rings I pick it up in its June's

576
00:27:49,670 --> 00:27:46,980
voice and she goes it's a damn lie and I

577
00:27:51,620 --> 00:27:49,680
said well June good to hear from you at

578
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:51,630
quite a hello yes yes

579
00:27:58,250 --> 00:27:55,290
so we exchanged pleasantries and then

580
00:27:59,840 --> 00:27:58,260
she explains to me she says she had been

581
00:28:02,660 --> 00:27:59,850
watching the news she wanted to know if

582
00:28:05,690 --> 00:28:02,670
I had been watching and she wanted to

583
00:28:08,300 --> 00:28:05,700
talk about Roswell case closed and then

584
00:28:11,660 --> 00:28:08,310
she said the balloon story is the same

585
00:28:13,430 --> 00:28:11,670
story that we used to use when we wrote

586
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:13,440
letters to the public telling them that

587
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:15,810
they hadn't seen what they said they saw

588
00:28:21,620 --> 00:28:19,890
and this went on for a while and finally

589
00:28:24,110 --> 00:28:21,630
I said why are you willing to talk to me

590
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:24,120
now and you weren't willing talk to me

591
00:28:30,770 --> 00:28:27,570
then and she said I'm 72 years old I've

592
00:28:33,050 --> 00:28:30,780
outlived two husbands and my cancers in

593
00:28:36,020 --> 00:28:33,060
remission what are they going to do

594
00:28:39,140 --> 00:28:36,030
shoot me or put me in prison I can do

595
00:28:41,810 --> 00:28:39,150
either one well that was good enough for

596
00:28:45,139 --> 00:28:41,820
me because I was already convinced that

597
00:28:47,659 --> 00:28:45,149
she was serious and so I asked her if I

598
00:28:51,259 --> 00:28:47,669
come and visit her and that began a

599
00:28:53,419 --> 00:28:51,269
whole series mostly late night meetings

600
00:28:56,950 --> 00:28:53,429
because she was kind of a night owl I

601
00:29:00,709 --> 00:28:56,960
was on a swing shift so I would get off

602
00:29:03,649 --> 00:29:00,719
off-duty and then drive the 30 miles to

603
00:29:06,019 --> 00:29:03,659
her house out in Ocean Shores and we

604
00:29:08,899 --> 00:29:06,029
would sit up half the night me listening

605
00:29:11,629 --> 00:29:08,909
to her life story eventually she showed

606
00:29:16,009 --> 00:29:11,639
me her personal papers that she later

607
00:29:19,849 --> 00:29:16,019
gave to me and finally I got her to go

608
00:29:22,129 --> 00:29:19,859
on audiotape that was not easy she was

609
00:29:26,749 --> 00:29:22,139
not real happy with that mainly because

610
00:29:29,839 --> 00:29:26,759
I think she was so concerned about being

611
00:29:32,599 --> 00:29:29,849
careful it was very important to her

612
00:29:35,149 --> 00:29:32,609
that she would only tell me things that

613
00:29:37,129 --> 00:29:35,159
she was sure of and that of course is

614
00:29:40,700 --> 00:29:37,139
kind of a good news/bad news thing I

615
00:29:43,009 --> 00:29:40,710
only wanted the facts from her but it

616
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:43,019
made her extra careful in other words if

617
00:29:47,180 --> 00:29:45,570
she didn't know she didn't know and if

618
00:29:49,789 --> 00:29:47,190
she didn't remember she didn't remember

619
00:29:52,669 --> 00:29:49,799
that's that's gold when you're

620
00:29:55,009 --> 00:29:52,679
interviewing witnesses the worst witness

621
00:29:58,099 --> 00:29:55,019
is the one who knows everything about

622
00:30:00,200 --> 00:29:58,109
everything and we have them in the UFO

623
00:30:03,079 --> 00:30:00,210
field they never met in an

624
00:30:04,849 --> 00:30:03,089
all-encompassing theory of

625
00:30:08,570 --> 00:30:04,859
extraterrestrial presence that they

626
00:30:11,389 --> 00:30:08,580
didn't like so I I gradually also it

627
00:30:13,759 --> 00:30:11,399
would happen to be as a personal aside

628
00:30:15,619 --> 00:30:13,769
this happened to be during a time period

629
00:30:19,279 --> 00:30:15,629
when Joanne and I had one of our

630
00:30:21,919 --> 00:30:19,289
breakups and so Jun and I became friends

631
00:30:24,859 --> 00:30:21,929
and you know I don't mean in a romantic

632
00:30:27,589 --> 00:30:24,869
way but I mean she was a lonely person I

633
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:27,599
was a lonely man we we talked about our

634
00:30:33,409 --> 00:30:30,690
lives where we were going where we'd

635
00:30:34,279 --> 00:30:33,419
been I would have loved to have heard

636
00:30:37,249 --> 00:30:34,289
her story

637
00:30:40,129 --> 00:30:37,259
even without the UFO part because she

638
00:30:41,959 --> 00:30:40,139
grew up in Dayton Ohio she worked for

639
00:30:46,729 --> 00:30:41,969
the United States government three times

640
00:30:50,359 --> 00:30:46,739
between 1942 and 1952 she worked in

641
00:30:53,869 --> 00:30:50,369
classified laboratories she had a Q

642
00:30:56,829 --> 00:30:53,879
level security clearance eventually she

643
00:30:58,909 --> 00:30:56,839
was steadily promoted talking to June

644
00:31:01,460 --> 00:30:58,919
the more I got to know her

645
00:31:05,450 --> 00:31:01,470
more I got to respect her and and you

646
00:31:07,129 --> 00:31:05,460
know little anecdotes like this she told

647
00:31:09,739 --> 00:31:07,139
me she said if you grew up in Dayton

648
00:31:11,539 --> 00:31:09,749
Ohio and you wanted a good job you went

649
00:31:14,239 --> 00:31:11,549
to work for the government that was just

650
00:31:17,239 --> 00:31:14,249
the way it was and you got to remember

651
00:31:20,180 --> 00:31:17,249
that when she went to work there in 1942

652
00:31:24,470 --> 00:31:20,190
the war had just begun of course on

653
00:31:27,379 --> 00:31:24,480
December 7th of 1941 they had right

654
00:31:29,930 --> 00:31:27,389
field right field was the one place

655
00:31:32,269 --> 00:31:29,940
where they had wind tunnels and they

656
00:31:35,180 --> 00:31:32,279
were doing experimentation on aviation

657
00:31:37,419 --> 00:31:35,190
but there was no Air Force then there

658
00:31:43,190 --> 00:31:37,429
was the Air Force did not exist until

659
00:31:45,229 --> 00:31:43,200
after world war ii at tours in 1947 as a

660
00:31:48,739 --> 00:31:45,239
result of the National Security Act

661
00:31:52,310 --> 00:31:48,749
right so when she went to work there I

662
00:31:55,940 --> 00:31:52,320
actually have papers by her that are on

663
00:32:00,109 --> 00:31:55,950
War Department stationery and in and

664
00:32:03,259 --> 00:32:00,119
it's you know the the army army aviation

665
00:32:06,169 --> 00:32:03,269
the air material command things like

666
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:06,179
that because you know none of the things

667
00:32:10,909 --> 00:32:09,210
that we take for granted even existed so

668
00:32:14,180 --> 00:32:10,919
it was fascinating to hear like the

669
00:32:16,820 --> 00:32:14,190
night of Pearl Harbor before Pearl

670
00:32:20,899 --> 00:32:16,830
Harbor there wasn't even a fence around

671
00:32:23,389 --> 00:32:20,909
right field and she told me that that

672
00:32:27,049 --> 00:32:23,399
night that that occurred they sent out

673
00:32:30,519 --> 00:32:27,059
trucks of soldiers sentries with rifles

674
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:30,529
to surround the entire base where each

675
00:32:35,989 --> 00:32:32,850
sentry could see the other one because

676
00:32:38,899 --> 00:32:35,999
nobody knew whether or not the United

677
00:32:41,899 --> 00:32:38,909
States was about to be invaded by the

678
00:32:45,379 --> 00:32:41,909
Japanese there was there was panic and

679
00:32:48,950 --> 00:32:45,389
chaos and confusion and so right field

680
00:32:51,379 --> 00:32:48,960
being a very important facility they had

681
00:32:53,330 --> 00:32:51,389
to secure it right and then you know

682
00:32:56,810 --> 00:32:53,340
eventually James when it becomes right

683
00:32:59,119 --> 00:32:56,820
Air Force Base which we'll get to you

684
00:33:02,659 --> 00:32:59,129
know this this this place becomes

685
00:33:05,419 --> 00:33:02,669
synonymous with exactly UFO case I mean

686
00:33:08,419 --> 00:33:05,429
again that's a little fast-forwarding I

687
00:33:11,700 --> 00:33:08,429
would love to hear if you don't mind a

688
00:33:14,460 --> 00:33:11,710
little bit more about June cranes clear

689
00:33:16,169 --> 00:33:14,470
this cute clearance and then also what

690
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:16,179
really caught my attention now this is

691
00:33:20,820 --> 00:33:18,850
all transcribed by you for audio and

692
00:33:23,159 --> 00:33:20,830
there were some really key points that

693
00:33:25,409 --> 00:33:23,169
stuck out to me so I guess maybe we'll

694
00:33:28,169 --> 00:33:25,419
sort of focus on those so the first two

695
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:28,179
would be this queue clearance and and

696
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:31,570
June's experience with catching a spy

697
00:33:37,289 --> 00:33:34,690
this really fascinated me would you mind

698
00:33:39,389 --> 00:33:37,299
running us through these two things no I

699
00:33:41,130 --> 00:33:39,399
wouldn't mind at all okay the queue

700
00:33:43,279 --> 00:33:41,140
level clearance actually has an

701
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:43,289
interesting evolution and the way that I

702
00:33:49,639 --> 00:33:45,850
confirmed it was from a completely

703
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:49,649
unexpected source when it came to

704
00:33:54,870 --> 00:33:52,090
figuring out what a queue level

705
00:33:58,230 --> 00:33:54,880
clearance was back then and it came from

706
00:34:01,110 --> 00:33:58,240
my father and the reason being that when

707
00:34:05,669 --> 00:34:01,120
he got out of the Navy he ended up going

708
00:34:09,240 --> 00:34:05,679
to work for a nuclear fuel processing

709
00:34:11,310 --> 00:34:09,250
plant in Paducah Kentucky it was the

710
00:34:14,909 --> 00:34:11,320
second one in the United States after

711
00:34:16,859 --> 00:34:14,919
Oak Ridge and actually I think there was

712
00:34:18,990 --> 00:34:16,869
of course they were making weapons-grade

713
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:19,000
up here but we had Hanford here in

714
00:34:25,230 --> 00:34:22,450
Washington State but any event when my

715
00:34:26,940 --> 00:34:25,240
dad worked there in the control room he

716
00:34:30,389 --> 00:34:26,950
had to have a cue level security

717
00:34:34,109 --> 00:34:30,399
clearance and back then you literally

718
00:34:36,720 --> 00:34:34,119
wore a cardboard letter Q that was

719
00:34:39,690 --> 00:34:36,730
pinned to your clothing that you had to

720
00:34:42,060 --> 00:34:39,700
wear at all times when you were in this

721
00:34:44,430 --> 00:34:42,070
high security environment so that

722
00:34:47,190 --> 00:34:44,440
everybody there would know that you were

723
00:34:50,010 --> 00:34:47,200
cleared to be there so it that that's

724
00:34:51,599 --> 00:34:50,020
literally what a queue clearance was now

725
00:34:55,079 --> 00:34:51,609
of course it's different you know with

726
00:34:57,030 --> 00:34:55,089
with key cards and you know fingerprints

727
00:34:59,490 --> 00:34:57,040
and retinas and all the other ways that

728
00:35:02,670 --> 00:34:59,500
you know a high security facility can

729
00:35:05,130 --> 00:35:02,680
operate right but back then that's all

730
00:35:08,099 --> 00:35:05,140
they had and a Q clearance meant that

731
00:35:10,410 --> 00:35:08,109
they would send the FBI to interview all

732
00:35:13,620 --> 00:35:10,420
of your friends and relatives to to

733
00:35:15,240 --> 00:35:13,630
verify your identity to see if there was

734
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:15,250
anything in your background

735
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:17,290
this should bar you from your clearance

736
00:35:22,500 --> 00:35:20,650
so my dad actually went through that so

737
00:35:25,350 --> 00:35:22,510
when I was telling him about the work I

738
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:25,360
was doing on June's background

739
00:35:32,250 --> 00:35:27,970
he was immediately able to explain to me

740
00:35:35,580 --> 00:35:32,260
what the process was and and I do know

741
00:35:37,260 --> 00:35:35,590
that Jun worked on classified projects

742
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:37,270
and the way that one of the ways that I

743
00:35:43,890 --> 00:35:39,970
know that is that she talked about

744
00:35:46,530 --> 00:35:43,900
project Caucasian and she did not

745
00:35:49,110 --> 00:35:46,540
remember all of the details but she

746
00:35:50,670 --> 00:35:49,120
remembered things like you know what are

747
00:35:53,370 --> 00:35:50,680
the things I've learned along the way in

748
00:35:55,590 --> 00:35:53,380
interviewing people is that the thing

749
00:35:59,850 --> 00:35:55,600
that most people remember most strongly

750
00:36:02,430 --> 00:35:59,860
is not the event but their emotional

751
00:36:05,370 --> 00:36:02,440
reaction to the event right right I

752
00:36:08,190 --> 00:36:05,380
focus a lot on that with my my work

753
00:36:10,830 --> 00:36:08,200
interviewing witnesses so I couldn't

754
00:36:13,740 --> 00:36:10,840
agree with that more if people people

755
00:36:15,720 --> 00:36:13,750
remember how they felt and she

756
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:15,730
remembered that there was like a lot of

757
00:36:22,020 --> 00:36:20,050
nervousness and tension whenever she

758
00:36:24,630 --> 00:36:22,030
worked on something called project

759
00:36:27,390 --> 00:36:24,640
Caucasian she recalled that her boss

760
00:36:29,220 --> 00:36:27,400
would become very you know he was like

761
00:36:31,770 --> 00:36:29,230
skittish because he was worried about

762
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:31,780
the security around this particular

763
00:36:38,070 --> 00:36:33,010
project

764
00:36:40,350 --> 00:36:38,080
well Jun passed away in 1998 I had all

765
00:36:42,860 --> 00:36:40,360
of this information and I eventually was

766
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:42,870
able to get it to a team of researchers

767
00:36:49,580 --> 00:36:46,690
in 2000 quite an illustrious group of

768
00:36:53,130 --> 00:36:49,590
people that I never expected to meet and

769
00:36:55,500 --> 00:36:53,140
but there were no military historians

770
00:36:57,750 --> 00:36:55,510
that I was able to contact who could

771
00:37:00,330 --> 00:36:57,760
tell me anything about project Caucasian

772
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:00,340
it was a complete mystery nobody had

773
00:37:06,450 --> 00:37:02,890
ever heard of that as a codename for a

774
00:37:09,540 --> 00:37:06,460
project well three or four years after

775
00:37:14,550 --> 00:37:09,550
that I believe it was like 2003 2004

776
00:37:18,150 --> 00:37:14,560
they Declassified project Caucasian from

777
00:37:22,590 --> 00:37:18,160
top secret down to a public disclosure

778
00:37:24,270 --> 00:37:22,600
document it was the parachute harness it

779
00:37:26,910 --> 00:37:24,280
was the codename for the project to

780
00:37:29,310 --> 00:37:26,920
create a parachute harness for hydrogen

781
00:37:33,090 --> 00:37:29,320
bomb to be dropped out of the back of a

782
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:33,100
b-36 bomber everyone was so nervous yes

783
00:37:36,210 --> 00:37:34,930
no wonder everybody was so nervous and

784
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:36,220
no wonder it was a highly classified

785
00:37:41,030 --> 00:37:37,770
project of course

786
00:37:44,690 --> 00:37:41,040
are they classified and Jun worked in

787
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:44,700
these laboratories doing what we would

788
00:37:50,860 --> 00:37:47,370
now call office manager work but a woman

789
00:37:54,140 --> 00:37:50,870
could not have a title like manager so

790
00:37:56,420 --> 00:37:54,150
she was doing all the clerical work she

791
00:37:59,450 --> 00:37:56,430
was also doing security work which meant

792
00:38:02,630 --> 00:37:59,460
she told me that she was in charge of

793
00:38:05,240 --> 00:38:02,640
multiple safes now you got to think back

794
00:38:09,370 --> 00:38:05,250
and remember this is this is before

795
00:38:12,610 --> 00:38:09,380
anybody even imagined the internet so

796
00:38:15,620 --> 00:38:12,620
people are using manual typewriters

797
00:38:19,910 --> 00:38:15,630
everything is on paper and in folders

798
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:19,920
and files it had to be logged in and out

799
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:23,010
of safes and it was her job she told me

800
00:38:29,390 --> 00:38:26,130
that she had a full-bird colonel who was

801
00:38:32,450 --> 00:38:29,400
her direct supervisor who was in charge

802
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:32,460
of the security of these documents in

803
00:38:38,330 --> 00:38:35,610
this laboratory where she worked and so

804
00:38:41,420 --> 00:38:38,340
she routinely associated with scientists

805
00:38:44,180 --> 00:38:41,430
and engineers and in order to do her

806
00:38:46,910 --> 00:38:44,190
work she had to have the same security

807
00:38:49,820 --> 00:38:46,920
clearance as the people who were working

808
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:49,830
on these projects so she told me for

809
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:51,450
instance she kept using the phrase she

810
00:38:57,260 --> 00:38:54,570
said that Kenickie wrote the Bible on

811
00:38:59,420 --> 00:38:57,270
parachutes well there wasn't a whole lot

812
00:39:01,880 --> 00:38:59,430
on him at the time that I was talking to

813
00:39:03,290 --> 00:39:01,890
June but later on I learned that there

814
00:39:06,590 --> 00:39:03,300
was a Walter Kanaka

815
00:39:09,110 --> 00:39:06,600
who was one of the paperclip scientists

816
00:39:12,170 --> 00:39:09,120
who was brought over from Germany at the

817
00:39:15,590 --> 00:39:12,180
end of World War two and given a cushy

818
00:39:19,730 --> 00:39:15,600
job in the United States in return for

819
00:39:23,720 --> 00:39:19,740
his assistance in building parachutes to

820
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:23,730
drop payloads onto battlefields in other

821
00:39:30,190 --> 00:39:26,370
words he was an engineer who could

822
00:39:33,350 --> 00:39:30,200
design parachutes to drop vehicles and

823
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:33,360
military equipment from an airplane so

824
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:35,970
this is all highly classified work this

825
00:39:41,390 --> 00:39:39,090
is military science being applied as it

826
00:39:44,240 --> 00:39:41,400
were well she was also tasked with

827
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:44,250
writing letters to people related to

828
00:39:49,070 --> 00:39:46,890
UFOs and back then

829
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:49,080
they were actually it was a few wrote

830
00:39:51,110 --> 00:39:49,410
them

831
00:39:53,060 --> 00:39:51,120
any kind of a letter at all they would

832
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:53,070
actually send you a real letter back

833
00:39:56,870 --> 00:39:54,690
saying that you know we don't

834
00:39:59,740 --> 00:39:56,880
investigate UFOs or we think that what

835
00:40:02,150 --> 00:39:59,750
you what you have presented is

836
00:40:05,140 --> 00:40:02,160
impossible from an engineering viewpoint

837
00:40:08,150 --> 00:40:05,150
etc she was also privy to conversations

838
00:40:09,980 --> 00:40:08,160
in other words she works amongst

839
00:40:12,260 --> 00:40:09,990
scientists and engineers and military

840
00:40:15,770 --> 00:40:12,270
people and they talked about some of

841
00:40:17,750 --> 00:40:15,780
their experiences in the southwest when

842
00:40:21,140 --> 00:40:17,760
they would go down there to do some of

843
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:21,150
the early rocketry research this is

844
00:40:27,620 --> 00:40:24,450
after World War two we are now trying to

845
00:40:30,020 --> 00:40:27,630
benefit from the v2 technology she

846
00:40:32,690 --> 00:40:30,030
mentioned the Aero B rocket which if you

847
00:40:35,210 --> 00:40:32,700
go back and you look at the history of

848
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:35,220
rocketry in the United States you'll

849
00:40:42,230 --> 00:40:39,210
hear that the Aero B was one of the

850
00:40:44,300 --> 00:40:42,240
first heavy lifter rockets nor is the

851
00:40:46,790 --> 00:40:44,310
one of the first Rockets that could

852
00:40:48,710 --> 00:40:46,800
carry a substantial payload and of

853
00:40:52,460 --> 00:40:48,720
course that's the beginning of the space

854
00:40:55,700 --> 00:40:52,470
program but then there's a personal side

855
00:40:58,670 --> 00:40:55,710
to this whole story and it goes with the

856
00:41:01,430 --> 00:40:58,680
times that June lived in and it deals

857
00:41:04,190 --> 00:41:01,440
with issues that are still important

858
00:41:07,460 --> 00:41:04,200
today June was an attractive intelligent

859
00:41:11,180 --> 00:41:07,470
young woman she gets a good job

860
00:41:13,790 --> 00:41:11,190
she's steadily promoted she is praised

861
00:41:16,970 --> 00:41:13,800
by her co-workers and her supervisors

862
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:16,980
she marries one of the base security

863
00:41:24,230 --> 00:41:20,490
policemen all he wants to do is to get

864
00:41:27,980 --> 00:41:24,240
out of the Air Force and go on with his

865
00:41:31,610 --> 00:41:27,990
life and he does not want her to have a

866
00:41:34,370 --> 00:41:31,620
career they eventually have a child and

867
00:41:36,500 --> 00:41:34,380
there is a there's a point in June's

868
00:41:39,470 --> 00:41:36,510
history that I could tell where she was

869
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:39,480
always sad and every time she would

870
00:41:46,060 --> 00:41:43,770
mention this one particular event she

871
00:41:49,310 --> 00:41:46,070
would get tears in her eyes and the

872
00:41:52,310 --> 00:41:49,320
event was that she was recalling the

873
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:52,320
night that she was ordered to stay very

874
00:41:57,650 --> 00:41:56,370
late and to take dictation from a German

875
00:42:00,410 --> 00:41:57,660
rocket scientist

876
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:00,420
she believes that it was Verner von

877
00:42:03,630 --> 00:42:01,690
Braun

878
00:42:07,140 --> 00:42:03,640
or she did leave that it was Verner von

879
00:42:09,089 --> 00:42:07,150
braun except that there is no historical

880
00:42:12,180 --> 00:42:09,099
record that i have ever been able to

881
00:42:14,220 --> 00:42:12,190
locate that places Verner von braun at

882
00:42:17,220 --> 00:42:14,230
wright-patterson but interestingly

883
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:17,230
enough the person who pointed that

884
00:42:24,359 --> 00:42:20,890
problem out to me was June when I first

885
00:42:26,999 --> 00:42:24,369
started talking to June she had two of

886
00:42:29,430 --> 00:42:27,009
two or three of the key biographies a

887
00:42:32,249 --> 00:42:29,440
Verner Braun Braun that she had been

888
00:42:35,039 --> 00:42:32,259
looking through trying to find some

889
00:42:37,980 --> 00:42:35,049
reference to him being there she

890
00:42:41,609 --> 00:42:37,990
couldn't find it I couldn't find it it's

891
00:42:43,730 --> 00:42:41,619
also possible that he may have sort of

892
00:42:46,019 --> 00:42:43,740
written out that part of his history

893
00:42:50,370 --> 00:42:46,029
because Verner von Braun of course

894
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:50,380
became a very famous scientist and kind

895
00:42:54,299 --> 00:42:53,650
of a spokesperson for our early space

896
00:42:57,930 --> 00:42:54,309
program

897
00:43:01,470 --> 00:42:57,940
right and so references to the time when

898
00:43:04,109 --> 00:43:01,480
he was an involuntary guest of the

899
00:43:06,809 --> 00:43:04,119
United States government may have been

900
00:43:08,190 --> 00:43:06,819
sanitized from his history because he

901
00:43:10,589 --> 00:43:08,200
probably wouldn't want to talk about

902
00:43:12,749 --> 00:43:10,599
that time period and the last thing he

903
00:43:14,999 --> 00:43:12,759
would want to talk about is the work

904
00:43:17,940 --> 00:43:15,009
that he may have done under the Third

905
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:17,950
Reich in Germany also because some of

906
00:43:21,329 --> 00:43:20,650
the places where he worked used slave

907
00:43:23,430 --> 00:43:21,339
labor

908
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:23,440
this guy just gets worse and worse oh

909
00:43:28,079 --> 00:43:26,650
it's Project Paperclip is is I mean

910
00:43:30,900 --> 00:43:28,089
that's one of the most controversial

911
00:43:33,240 --> 00:43:30,910
things that ever happened in US history

912
00:43:35,279 --> 00:43:33,250
and you could debate endlessly was it

913
00:43:38,549 --> 00:43:35,289
right that we did that was it immoral

914
00:43:40,799 --> 00:43:38,559
did we aid and abet people who were

915
00:43:43,170 --> 00:43:40,809
involved in genocide I mean you know you

916
00:43:46,140 --> 00:43:43,180
could goes on and on if we had taken

917
00:43:48,150 --> 00:43:46,150
those scientists the Soviets probably

918
00:43:50,099 --> 00:43:48,160
would have taken them and we would have

919
00:43:53,069 --> 00:43:50,109
been behind in the space program I don't

920
00:43:56,430 --> 00:43:53,079
know how you argue that it is what it is

921
00:43:59,039 --> 00:43:56,440
but Project Paperclip is fascinating

922
00:44:02,430 --> 00:43:59,049
history and the thing about Joon's story

923
00:44:05,970 --> 00:44:02,440
is she's not a smoking gun witness to

924
00:44:08,670 --> 00:44:05,980
many things but because we can so firmly

925
00:44:11,720 --> 00:44:08,680
establish who she was and where she

926
00:44:14,240 --> 00:44:11,730
worked much of what she has to say is

927
00:44:17,150 --> 00:44:14,250
what I would call key

928
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:17,160
corroborating testimony and that's what

929
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:20,130
makes her story powerful and her honesty

930
00:44:26,450 --> 00:44:23,130
makes her story powerful she didn't

931
00:44:29,210 --> 00:44:26,460
claim to be all-powerful all-knowing in

932
00:44:32,240 --> 00:44:29,220
the UFO movement she had certain things

933
00:44:34,820 --> 00:44:32,250
that she was certain of that she had

934
00:44:38,060 --> 00:44:34,830
experienced that were very important to

935
00:44:41,270 --> 00:44:38,070
her and I mentioned that she had to stay

936
00:44:44,030 --> 00:44:41,280
late because of this dictation well when

937
00:44:47,510 --> 00:44:44,040
she was told that she could not go home

938
00:44:50,810 --> 00:44:47,520
until it was done this military officer

939
00:44:54,260 --> 00:44:50,820
who had escorted her to where the

940
00:44:55,100 --> 00:44:54,270
scientist was being held told June he

941
00:44:58,370 --> 00:44:55,110
said June

942
00:45:00,830 --> 00:44:58,380
if you succeed this project and we get

943
00:45:04,340 --> 00:45:00,840
the money from Congress that we're

944
00:45:07,130 --> 00:45:04,350
trying to get based upon partially the

945
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:07,140
work you're doing here transcribing this

946
00:45:13,370 --> 00:45:09,690
man's testimony you will have had your

947
00:45:15,290 --> 00:45:13,380
moment in history because he believed

948
00:45:18,350 --> 00:45:15,300
that this was going to be part of the

949
00:45:21,290 --> 00:45:18,360
foundation of the space program so June

950
00:45:24,140 --> 00:45:21,300
was very patriotic and she was really

951
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:24,150
honored to be you know even a small part

952
00:45:31,580 --> 00:45:27,890
of something as historic as that and and

953
00:45:34,940 --> 00:45:31,590
yet they wanted her to stay with the

954
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:34,950
program doing her office managerial

955
00:45:40,010 --> 00:45:37,650
clerical work but her husband wouldn't

956
00:45:42,590 --> 00:45:40,020
hear of it and told her that she had to

957
00:45:46,790 --> 00:45:42,600
quit her job and so she did and she

958
00:45:48,830 --> 00:45:46,800
always regretted that her husband was

959
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:48,840
killed on their 10th wedding anniversary

960
00:45:53,630 --> 00:45:51,570
and this is weird too

961
00:45:57,500 --> 00:45:53,640
by then they had moved to Portland

962
00:45:59,360 --> 00:45:57,510
Oregon and June had June and he had had

963
00:46:01,190 --> 00:45:59,370
kind of a rocky road and she thought

964
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:01,200
they were going to break up and they

965
00:46:05,240 --> 00:46:02,850
were just getting things back together

966
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:05,250
and they were going to go out to

967
00:46:11,540 --> 00:46:08,970
celebrate their 10th anniversary and he

968
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:11,550
went out front of the house to put new

969
00:46:17,870 --> 00:46:15,090
license plate tabs on the car and a

970
00:46:21,770 --> 00:46:17,880
drunk driver came around the corner and

971
00:46:24,140 --> 00:46:21,780
smashed into the back of the car and he

972
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:24,150
was caught in the middle and he was

973
00:46:27,620 --> 00:46:27,450
killed in that auto accident well you

974
00:46:29,660 --> 00:46:27,630
know

975
00:46:33,230 --> 00:46:29,670
I'm an investigator and I was also

976
00:46:35,110 --> 00:46:33,240
June's friends so I actually dug up the

977
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:35,120
newspaper article in the Portland

978
00:46:40,580 --> 00:46:37,890
newspaper that documents that traffic

979
00:46:42,500 --> 00:46:40,590
accident even as wild as that story

980
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:42,510
sounds it sounds like something out of a

981
00:46:48,470 --> 00:46:45,690
novel it's real and so and then June

982
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:48,480
gave me all of her papers that prove

983
00:46:55,340 --> 00:46:51,330
where she worked and then independent of

984
00:46:57,830 --> 00:46:55,350
that I made multiple applications to the

985
00:47:00,650 --> 00:46:57,840
National Records Center in Saint Louis

986
00:47:04,070 --> 00:47:00,660
because June was a civilian employee of

987
00:47:05,720 --> 00:47:04,080
the US government and at first they told

988
00:47:07,850 --> 00:47:05,730
me they didn't have the records there

989
00:47:10,100 --> 00:47:07,860
had been a terrible fire the records

990
00:47:12,890 --> 00:47:10,110
were not available at cetera etc I made

991
00:47:16,310 --> 00:47:12,900
multiple tries and finally without

992
00:47:18,740 --> 00:47:16,320
warning one day I got a huge envelope in

993
00:47:21,260 --> 00:47:18,750
the mail that was like two inches thick

994
00:47:25,570 --> 00:47:21,270
and someone had the photocopied every

995
00:47:27,860 --> 00:47:25,580
paper in her file and sent them to me I

996
00:47:30,290 --> 00:47:27,870
already had about a third of those

997
00:47:33,530 --> 00:47:30,300
documents anyway because I had Jun's

998
00:47:37,010 --> 00:47:33,540
copies but this all that did was fill in

999
00:47:38,870 --> 00:47:37,020
the blanks right and James I should add

1000
00:47:41,390 --> 00:47:38,880
here I mean a lot of the contention when

1001
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:41,400
it comes to quote-unquote whistleblowers

1002
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:43,050
or people who bring this information

1003
00:47:47,540 --> 00:47:46,170
forward is documentation of they worked

1004
00:47:49,370 --> 00:47:47,550
where they worked I mean this is

1005
00:47:51,380 --> 00:47:49,380
probably the biggest debate about the

1006
00:47:53,870 --> 00:47:51,390
whole bob lazar controversy which i

1007
00:47:55,430 --> 00:47:53,880
don't want to get into now but I think

1008
00:47:58,010 --> 00:47:55,440
that's very important that you had it

1009
00:48:00,500 --> 00:47:58,020
from June and you had this this third

1010
00:48:02,660 --> 00:48:00,510
party who was able to corroborate that

1011
00:48:06,260 --> 00:48:02,670
as well right and that really you know

1012
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:06,270
that that puts you a long ways up in

1013
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:08,370
terms of looking at this as an

1014
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:11,010
investigation as opposed to just

1015
00:48:15,260 --> 00:48:12,810
thinking that it's a you know a

1016
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:15,270
whistleblower disclosure statement and

1017
00:48:23,030 --> 00:48:18,570
and you know everything just screamed at

1018
00:48:25,340 --> 00:48:23,040
me that this was the real deal and June

1019
00:48:28,010 --> 00:48:25,350
told me all the details like the office

1020
00:48:29,930 --> 00:48:28,020
where she worked I of course am old

1021
00:48:33,860 --> 00:48:29,940
enough that I remember what a manual

1022
00:48:36,020 --> 00:48:33,870
typewriter is and it had an ink ribbon

1023
00:48:37,940 --> 00:48:36,030
and you actually had McKee's that

1024
00:48:40,490 --> 00:48:37,950
mechanically struck the ribbon

1025
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:40,500
and made a mark on a sheet of paper when

1026
00:48:45,410 --> 00:48:42,570
they went home at night they had to lock

1027
00:48:48,230 --> 00:48:45,420
up every piece of paper that they worked

1028
00:48:50,270 --> 00:48:48,240
on in a safe and that included the

1029
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:50,280
typewriter ribbon because they were

1030
00:48:54,859 --> 00:48:52,770
afraid that enemy agents would get a

1031
00:48:58,190 --> 00:48:54,869
hold of the typewriter ribbon and would

1032
00:49:01,520 --> 00:48:58,200
be able by studying the ribbon be able

1033
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:01,530
to reconstruct some portion of what they

1034
00:49:05,450 --> 00:49:03,450
were writing said they went to various

1035
00:49:07,069 --> 00:49:05,460
lengths wow that's that that's pretty

1036
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:07,079
that was their equivalent their

1037
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:09,690
equivalent of preventing somebody from

1038
00:49:14,930 --> 00:49:12,690
hacking your computer yeah only this was

1039
00:49:17,599 --> 00:49:14,940
done you know with manual typewriters

1040
00:49:20,630 --> 00:49:17,609
paper all that kind of thing so there

1041
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:20,640
was a woman in June's office who was

1042
00:49:27,589 --> 00:49:24,570
suspected of espionage and she ended up

1043
00:49:30,710 --> 00:49:27,599
being a I think she was used as some

1044
00:49:32,900 --> 00:49:30,720
sort of a a decoy it was never clear to

1045
00:49:35,780 --> 00:49:32,910
me exactly how it went down except that

1046
00:49:39,170 --> 00:49:35,790
June was walking home one night and she

1047
00:49:41,260 --> 00:49:39,180
was very afraid because she was worried

1048
00:49:44,270 --> 00:49:41,270
that something bad was going to happen

1049
00:49:47,180 --> 00:49:44,280
relating to this woman being suspected

1050
00:49:50,240 --> 00:49:47,190
of espionage and she remembers that at a

1051
00:49:53,660 --> 00:49:50,250
certain point going home suddenly there

1052
00:49:56,270 --> 00:49:53,670
were all these cars and federal agents

1053
00:49:59,780 --> 00:49:56,280
and then when she went to the work the

1054
00:50:02,420 --> 00:49:59,790
next day every trace of that woman was

1055
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:02,430
gone from the office and and she never

1056
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:03,410
saw her again

1057
00:50:10,099 --> 00:50:06,650
and of course espionage was very real

1058
00:50:12,260 --> 00:50:10,109
threat in world war two the strangest

1059
00:50:15,410 --> 00:50:12,270
part of it was of course and I guess the

1060
00:50:18,170 --> 00:50:15,420
sad commentary on how people judge each

1061
00:50:21,290 --> 00:50:18,180
other the Japanese were put in

1062
00:50:23,450 --> 00:50:21,300
internment camps in California and I

1063
00:50:26,210 --> 00:50:23,460
believe in other places in the southwest

1064
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:26,220
we were actually under far more

1065
00:50:30,500 --> 00:50:28,530
espionage threat from the Germans than

1066
00:50:34,670 --> 00:50:30,510
we were ever under threat from the

1067
00:50:37,430 --> 00:50:34,680
Japanese right and nobody you know

1068
00:50:39,890 --> 00:50:37,440
German exactly up in camps and then

1069
00:50:43,490 --> 00:50:39,900
making them fight our Wars right exactly

1070
00:50:46,130 --> 00:50:43,500
exactly and of course we don't like to

1071
00:50:47,540 --> 00:50:46,140
admit it but there was actually some

1072
00:50:49,130 --> 00:50:47,550
people in the United States were

1073
00:50:51,710 --> 00:50:49,140
advocating either that we stay

1074
00:50:53,330 --> 00:50:51,720
completely out of World War two or

1075
00:50:56,390 --> 00:50:53,340
even that we should be on the side of

1076
00:50:58,280 --> 00:50:56,400
the axis I mean we forget that we want

1077
00:51:00,470 --> 00:50:58,290
to think that you know eventually

1078
00:51:02,839 --> 00:51:00,480
obviously the country was united in

1079
00:51:05,990 --> 00:51:02,849
World War two probably had a level that

1080
00:51:08,570 --> 00:51:06,000
it has never been United since but it

1081
00:51:11,839 --> 00:51:08,580
was a you know it wasn't always that

1082
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:11,849
simple so June was part of all of these

1083
00:51:16,820 --> 00:51:14,490
times and so I loved all these little

1084
00:51:19,339 --> 00:51:16,830
anecdotal stories that she told me about

1085
00:51:22,339 --> 00:51:19,349
what it was like to work there what it

1086
00:51:23,900 --> 00:51:22,349
was like to live there you know she told

1087
00:51:26,089 --> 00:51:23,910
me about how you couldn't you know you

1088
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:26,099
couldn't take your spouse to an office

1089
00:51:30,980 --> 00:51:29,490
party why is that well because the

1090
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:30,990
people might talk about something

1091
00:51:35,630 --> 00:51:33,210
classified very good point yeah that

1092
00:51:39,410 --> 00:51:35,640
didn't even dawn on me Cybil no

1093
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:39,420
everybody has to be have the same level

1094
00:51:44,570 --> 00:51:42,450
of security clearance and access and she

1095
00:51:47,270 --> 00:51:44,580
took that very seriously and you had to

1096
00:51:49,970 --> 00:51:47,280
and she she showed me I have a copy of a

1097
00:51:51,620 --> 00:51:49,980
document that she signed that said that

1098
00:51:54,830 --> 00:51:51,630
you know she could be sent to prison or

1099
00:51:57,140 --> 00:51:54,840
fined $10,000 for disclosing anything

1100
00:52:00,320 --> 00:51:57,150
that she had seen or heard while she

1101
00:52:03,589 --> 00:52:00,330
worked there and so you know in point of

1102
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:03,599
fact June did take a risk by telling me

1103
00:52:07,970 --> 00:52:06,210
what she told me now of course one of

1104
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:07,980
the reasons that they don't go after

1105
00:52:12,890 --> 00:52:10,170
people like this would be that if they

1106
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:12,900
went after June because she disclosed

1107
00:52:18,140 --> 00:52:15,570
things about UFOs that would be like

1108
00:52:20,450 --> 00:52:18,150
proving that what she had to say was

1109
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:20,460
real exactly the lengths in which they

1110
00:52:24,980 --> 00:52:23,010
went would again like you mentioned at

1111
00:52:28,099 --> 00:52:24,990
the top of our conversation you know

1112
00:52:31,130 --> 00:52:28,109
almost the actions and the denial is

1113
00:52:33,589 --> 00:52:31,140
almost far more volumous than exact

1114
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:33,599
something else yeah so they're smart

1115
00:52:38,240 --> 00:52:35,970
enough not to fall into that trap right

1116
00:52:41,300 --> 00:52:38,250
well let's James let's get to some of

1117
00:52:42,980 --> 00:52:41,310
that UFO information that June brought

1118
00:52:45,349 --> 00:52:42,990
to you now the first one that really

1119
00:52:48,230 --> 00:52:45,359
stuck out to me what she touched this

1120
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:48,240
piece this meadow this yes would you

1121
00:52:52,910 --> 00:52:50,490
mind running us through this sort an

1122
00:52:55,700 --> 00:52:52,920
hour's key point as I recall she thought

1123
00:52:57,050 --> 00:52:55,710
that one of the people who the person

1124
00:52:59,930 --> 00:52:57,060
involved might have been named

1125
00:53:03,140 --> 00:52:59,940
lieutenant Rose unfortunately there are

1126
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:03,150
too many lieutenant roses but she

1127
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:06,290
you got a picture June tall intelligent

1128
00:53:10,970 --> 00:53:08,850
woman in a predominantly male

1129
00:53:14,720 --> 00:53:10,980
environment she's doing her work an

1130
00:53:16,670 --> 00:53:14,730
officer stops by her office starts kind

1131
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:16,680
of flirting with her and making casual

1132
00:53:23,720 --> 00:53:20,690
conversation reaches into his pocket and

1133
00:53:27,380 --> 00:53:23,730
pulls out something about the size of a

1134
00:53:29,900 --> 00:53:27,390
business card and it's metal and he says

1135
00:53:32,720 --> 00:53:29,910
junior a good worker tear this up and

1136
00:53:36,110 --> 00:53:32,730
meaning take the scissors and do

1137
00:53:39,110 --> 00:53:36,120
whatever the damage you can well not too

1138
00:53:41,540 --> 00:53:39,120
surprisingly she can't cut it she can't

1139
00:53:44,030 --> 00:53:41,550
pierce is you can't dent it you can't do

1140
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:44,040
anything to it and if you want it up

1141
00:53:49,820 --> 00:53:46,410
into a ball it returns to its original

1142
00:53:52,340 --> 00:53:49,830
shape like water flowing back and

1143
00:53:54,650 --> 00:53:52,350
where's there's no wrinkling there's no

1144
00:53:58,340 --> 00:53:54,660
anything and the metal weighs almost

1145
00:54:01,000 --> 00:53:58,350
nothing this of course is the node the

1146
00:54:06,110 --> 00:54:01,010
memory metal the holy grail of ufology

1147
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:06,120
so she says what is this and the guy

1148
00:54:11,240 --> 00:54:08,010
looks at her and says it's a piece of a

1149
00:54:14,300 --> 00:54:11,250
spaceship and she goes oh come on what

1150
00:54:17,300 --> 00:54:14,310
is it really and he goes it's a piece of

1151
00:54:19,570 --> 00:54:17,310
a spaceship and about that time somebody

1152
00:54:23,030 --> 00:54:19,580
else starts to walk through the area

1153
00:54:25,430 --> 00:54:23,040
he gets fearful grabs that sticks it

1154
00:54:28,550 --> 00:54:25,440
into his pocket and then does one of

1155
00:54:31,820 --> 00:54:28,560
these we weren't really talking typed

1156
00:54:34,310 --> 00:54:31,830
looks you know and then he leaves so

1157
00:54:37,910 --> 00:54:34,320
that's you know that's the whole story

1158
00:54:41,860 --> 00:54:37,920
it's tantalizing because of how it fits

1159
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:41,870
into the rest of the history of ufology

1160
00:54:48,110 --> 00:54:45,450
she told me the way that it fits in is

1161
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:48,120
one of the first bombshells that she

1162
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:50,130
dropped on me that I had never heard

1163
00:54:54,710 --> 00:54:52,890
from anybody also though I later heard

1164
00:54:57,620 --> 00:54:54,720
this several years later from buki

1165
00:55:01,310 --> 00:54:57,630
researchers June said that by the time

1166
00:55:04,250 --> 00:55:01,320
she left the government's employ in 1952

1167
00:55:08,830 --> 00:55:04,260
the Air Force had been involved in not

1168
00:55:12,650 --> 00:55:08,840
one but three crash retrievals of UFOs

1169
00:55:15,470 --> 00:55:12,660
Roswell being one only one of them okay

1170
00:55:16,829 --> 00:55:15,480
and that's you know that's one of the

1171
00:55:19,650 --> 00:55:16,839
bombshells that came

1172
00:55:22,140 --> 00:55:19,660
dummy well then of course we have some

1173
00:55:25,319 --> 00:55:22,150
other interesting anecdotes probably the

1174
00:55:28,799 --> 00:55:25,329
best one is aside from the memory metal

1175
00:55:31,049 --> 00:55:28,809
incident is that one of the things that

1176
00:55:35,519 --> 00:55:31,059
June gave me was a very faded Polaroid

1177
00:55:37,469 --> 00:55:35,529
of some test pilots and she said that

1178
00:55:39,299 --> 00:55:37,479
they became friends with these pilots

1179
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:39,309
and they would talk to people that were

1180
00:55:44,999 --> 00:55:41,650
that were ABA ters that were going in

1181
00:55:47,609 --> 00:55:45,009
and out of write and of course most of

1182
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:47,619
the planes are cargo planes you know

1183
00:55:52,349 --> 00:55:49,690
they're carrying people and and Freight

1184
00:55:55,319 --> 00:55:52,359
in and out of this increasingly

1185
00:55:57,749 --> 00:55:55,329
important base may you can go back and

1186
00:56:00,599 --> 00:55:57,759
look at the statistics that you know in

1187
00:56:03,930 --> 00:56:00,609
the beginning by the time World War Two

1188
00:56:06,890 --> 00:56:03,940
was over wright-patterson Air Force Base

1189
00:56:10,650 --> 00:56:06,900
on an average day was as big as a

1190
00:56:14,099 --> 00:56:10,660
medium-sized city in terms of thousands

1191
00:56:17,099 --> 00:56:14,109
of civilian employees a hub of military

1192
00:56:20,069 --> 00:56:17,109
activity related to aviation research

1193
00:56:22,650 --> 00:56:20,079
and development I mean this became the

1194
00:56:25,019 --> 00:56:22,660
heart of the Air Force it still is in

1195
00:56:27,930 --> 00:56:25,029
many ways I would also add

1196
00:56:31,499 --> 00:56:27,940
parenthetically have you ever been to

1197
00:56:34,950 --> 00:56:31,509
the right Museum no I have not I passed

1198
00:56:37,079 --> 00:56:34,960
through dating briefly James but I

1199
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:37,089
wasn't able to actually like stop and go

1200
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:39,729
there I got to go there and I wished I

1201
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:41,650
would have had a couple more days yeah

1202
00:56:47,789 --> 00:56:44,170
but I will tell you and this is free

1203
00:56:50,729 --> 00:56:47,799
this is the finest aviation museum I

1204
00:56:53,819 --> 00:56:50,739
have ever been in it was awesome on a

1205
00:56:56,700 --> 00:56:53,829
level that I didn't even imagine I mean

1206
00:56:58,499 --> 00:56:56,710
I got I got to look at a reproduction of

1207
00:57:01,200 --> 00:56:58,509
the plane that the Wright brothers flew

1208
00:57:04,019 --> 00:57:01,210
and later on in the tour you you

1209
00:57:06,479 --> 00:57:04,029
actually get to stand next to a stealth

1210
00:57:08,670 --> 00:57:06,489
bomber this parked on the floor I

1211
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:08,680
remember I went to an airshow in my

1212
00:57:13,079 --> 00:57:10,930
hometown of Syracuse New York once where

1213
00:57:15,870 --> 00:57:13,089
there was a bomber and we got to

1214
00:57:18,719 --> 00:57:15,880
actually go up the little stepladder you

1215
00:57:20,489 --> 00:57:18,729
know and look inside and that moment

1216
00:57:22,259 --> 00:57:20,499
changed my life change like seeing this

1217
00:57:25,559 --> 00:57:22,269
stealth technology for the first time

1218
00:57:28,229 --> 00:57:25,569
having had a UFO sighting only a couple

1219
00:57:30,630 --> 00:57:28,239
years prior to this when possibly what

1220
00:57:32,940 --> 00:57:30,640
I'd seen that night was us

1221
00:57:35,009 --> 00:57:32,950
Baumer possibly you know I'll never know

1222
00:57:37,170 --> 00:57:35,019
what I actually saw that that was a

1223
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:37,180
pivotal moment for me as well so being

1224
00:57:40,559 --> 00:57:38,650
next to something like that I can't

1225
00:57:43,769 --> 00:57:40,569
imagine going from the Wright brothers

1226
00:57:45,029 --> 00:57:43,779
up to a stealth bomber that history gap

1227
00:57:47,009 --> 00:57:45,039
is incredible

1228
00:57:49,289 --> 00:57:47,019
well they fill in all the gaps and I

1229
00:57:50,700 --> 00:57:49,299
have to say that that you know that

1230
00:57:53,220 --> 00:57:50,710
gives you and that that of course is

1231
00:57:56,609 --> 00:57:53,230
just a museum that's attached to this

1232
00:57:59,960 --> 00:57:56,619
huge critically important Air Force Base

1233
00:58:04,799 --> 00:57:59,970
but interestingly enough from the get-go

1234
00:58:07,769 --> 00:58:04,809
almost every Roswell researcher says

1235
00:58:11,670 --> 00:58:07,779
that the key pieces of wreckage and

1236
00:58:14,849 --> 00:58:11,680
bodies went to right right that's what

1237
00:58:17,339 --> 00:58:14,859
we we've been told yes and June's story

1238
00:58:19,259 --> 00:58:17,349
fits right in with that because she

1239
00:58:22,319 --> 00:58:19,269
talked about how one day one of the

1240
00:58:25,109 --> 00:58:22,329
pilots came in and he was looking very

1241
00:58:28,109 --> 00:58:25,119
distraught and very tired out and he was

1242
00:58:31,230 --> 00:58:28,119
telling them during their kind of coffee

1243
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:31,240
room conversation that he had flown in

1244
00:58:38,730 --> 00:58:34,890
from New Mexico with bodies and wreckage

1245
00:58:41,930 --> 00:58:38,740
so when he said bodies they started

1246
00:58:45,029 --> 00:58:41,940
questioning him about who had died

1247
00:58:47,999 --> 00:58:45,039
thinking that he was going to say the

1248
00:58:50,549 --> 00:58:48,009
name of someone that they knew and this

1249
00:58:52,710 --> 00:58:50,559
conversation goes on far enough that

1250
00:58:55,559 --> 00:58:52,720
this pilot realizes that they're not

1251
00:58:58,079 --> 00:58:55,569
understanding him at all and he says you

1252
00:59:00,359 --> 00:58:58,089
don't understand they're not human and

1253
00:59:04,620 --> 00:59:00,369
we're talking about it you know child

1254
00:59:07,499 --> 00:59:04,630
sized bodies big heads the classic

1255
00:59:09,569 --> 00:59:07,509
description and and I mean James you've

1256
00:59:12,779 --> 00:59:09,579
personally spoken to Glenn Dennis am i

1257
00:59:14,789 --> 00:59:12,789
correct body thing as well yeah this

1258
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:14,799
might be a good tie in here well that's

1259
00:59:19,230 --> 00:59:16,450
that's an interesting thing and it

1260
00:59:22,220 --> 00:59:19,240
actually relates to June I ended up

1261
00:59:25,259 --> 00:59:22,230
going to New Mexico at first because my

1262
00:59:26,910 --> 00:59:25,269
wife and I wanted to go someplace that

1263
00:59:29,009 --> 00:59:26,920
neither one of us had ever been before

1264
00:59:32,549 --> 00:59:29,019
and we ended up settling on the

1265
00:59:34,230 --> 00:59:32,559
Southwest and that has been one of the

1266
00:59:37,769 --> 00:59:34,240
best decisions I ever made well we ended

1267
00:59:40,319 --> 00:59:37,779
up going to Roswell and along the way

1268
00:59:43,559 --> 00:59:40,329
I decided that I was going to donate a

1269
00:59:44,250 --> 00:59:43,569
copy of the June crane transcript I had

1270
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:44,260
not written

1271
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:47,650
the book yet I just made up a really

1272
00:59:54,050 --> 00:59:50,050
well printed precise copy of the

1273
00:59:57,960 --> 00:59:54,060
transcript by the way I used a off-duty

1274
01:00:01,290 --> 00:59:57,970
prosecutor's office secretary who I paid

1275
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:01,300
to do the transcription because she's

1276
01:00:05,940 --> 01:00:03,730
legal transcriptionist to get her to

1277
01:00:08,130 --> 01:00:05,950
transcribe the interview that's how I

1278
01:00:10,350 --> 01:00:08,140
got it for the book I'm not good enough

1279
01:00:13,050 --> 01:00:10,360
at transcribing nor do I have the

1280
01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:13,060
patience to sit there and put every word

1281
01:00:16,380 --> 01:00:15,610
type every word but these people do it

1282
01:00:20,100 --> 01:00:16,390
for a living

1283
01:00:23,310 --> 01:00:20,110
so I wanted to get everything as precise

1284
01:00:26,010 --> 01:00:23,320
as possible and getting that part was

1285
01:00:29,550 --> 01:00:26,020
essential right absolutely okay so we

1286
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:29,560
have let's let's talk a little I guess

1287
01:00:34,530 --> 01:00:32,770
you know in terms of the bodies no this

1288
01:00:36,990 --> 01:00:34,540
is interesting because we have the whole

1289
01:00:40,590 --> 01:00:37,000
test dummy theory that came out with

1290
01:00:42,300 --> 01:00:40,600
project mogul and in 1997 and June

1291
01:00:44,970 --> 01:00:42,310
actually had some knowledge on this

1292
01:00:47,670 --> 01:00:44,980
whole test dummy thing too right having

1293
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:47,680
worked on parachute projects and whatnot

1294
01:00:51,780 --> 01:00:49,450
could you maybe sort of run us through

1295
01:00:55,140 --> 01:00:51,790
that whole aspect well the number one

1296
01:00:56,880 --> 01:00:55,150
thing the number one reason why there's

1297
01:00:59,460 --> 01:00:56,890
well actually there's several really

1298
01:01:02,370 --> 01:00:59,470
good reasons the main reason why that's

1299
01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:02,380
not an explanation for Roswell is that

1300
01:01:06,780 --> 01:01:04,090
they didn't start doing the dummy drops

1301
01:01:09,420 --> 01:01:06,790
until the mid 50s and the other one is

1302
01:01:12,390 --> 01:01:09,430
the dummies that they were dropping if

1303
01:01:15,380 --> 01:01:12,400
you imagine an articulated mannequin

1304
01:01:18,630 --> 01:01:15,390
that looks like a six foot high GI Joe

1305
01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:18,640
completed with a steel pot helmet and

1306
01:01:25,050 --> 01:01:21,250
has a little tag on it that says if

1307
01:01:27,060 --> 01:01:25,060
found please return for a reward now if

1308
01:01:30,690 --> 01:01:27,070
you if you think that that looks like an

1309
01:01:32,940 --> 01:01:30,700
alien well I don't know what to say but

1310
01:01:35,130 --> 01:01:32,950
that's that's what the dummies look like

1311
01:01:38,310 --> 01:01:35,140
they were they were doing entirely

1312
01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:38,320
legitimate research to test out various

1313
01:01:43,890 --> 01:01:41,410
kinds of parachutes you know that that

1314
01:01:46,290 --> 01:01:43,900
is completely correct military research

1315
01:01:48,870 --> 01:01:46,300
and jun's spent a lot of time with the

1316
01:01:52,260 --> 01:01:48,880
parachute division so she knew a lot of

1317
01:01:54,060 --> 01:01:52,270
the ins and outs of it I ended up when

1318
01:01:57,050 --> 01:01:54,070
they did Roswell case closed

1319
01:01:58,140 --> 01:01:57,060
I've got a file in here where I actually

1320
01:02:01,650 --> 01:01:58,150
contact

1321
01:02:04,049 --> 01:02:01,660
the officer who is now retired who was

1322
01:02:07,650 --> 01:02:04,059
in charge of the parish the dummy drop

1323
01:02:11,640 --> 01:02:07,660
project and interestingly enough he is

1324
01:02:14,900 --> 01:02:11,650
angry at the Air Force for not giving

1325
01:02:18,269 --> 01:02:14,910
him credit for the work that he did

1326
01:02:22,740 --> 01:02:18,279
because he says that they misused his

1327
01:02:25,529 --> 01:02:22,750
work by using it as the explanation for

1328
01:02:28,370 --> 01:02:25,539
the Roswell UFO crash where's he's

1329
01:02:31,170 --> 01:02:28,380
saying I did serious work for you guys

1330
01:02:33,839 --> 01:02:31,180
you know I was doing research I was in

1331
01:02:36,390 --> 01:02:33,849
charge of a project and and instead of

1332
01:02:39,180 --> 01:02:36,400
honoring my work all you've done is use

1333
01:02:41,910 --> 01:02:39,190
it as an alternative explanation for a

1334
01:02:43,950 --> 01:02:41,920
UFO crash that's a pretty powerful

1335
01:02:46,829 --> 01:02:43,960
statement I mean that pretty much proves

1336
01:02:49,049 --> 01:02:46,839
the cover-up right there amongst many

1337
01:02:52,200 --> 01:02:49,059
other oh yeah totally

1338
01:02:54,660 --> 01:02:52,210
it's clearly a cover-up but anyway June

1339
01:02:58,019 --> 01:02:54,670
had this story about this test pilot and

1340
01:03:00,690 --> 01:02:58,029
you know they were all shocked when he

1341
01:03:04,740 --> 01:03:00,700
said that but later on what was even

1342
01:03:07,349 --> 01:03:04,750
stranger was that on the same day later

1343
01:03:09,140 --> 01:03:07,359
on in the day that should they're going

1344
01:03:13,859 --> 01:03:09,150
back and they're doing their usual

1345
01:03:16,019 --> 01:03:13,869
clerical tasks here comes a courier was

1346
01:03:18,569 --> 01:03:16,029
something that was called and June had

1347
01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:18,579
the right phrasing I had never heard

1348
01:03:25,289 --> 01:03:21,730
this phrasing before but it came back at

1349
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:25,299
me from another source something called

1350
01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:29,650
a to hot memo a to hot memo meant that

1351
01:03:34,019 --> 01:03:31,210
this isn't like having the base

1352
01:03:35,819 --> 01:03:34,029
commander send out an email because you

1353
01:03:38,460 --> 01:03:35,829
got a bear in mind there are no personal

1354
01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:38,470
computers and email did not exist back

1355
01:03:45,900 --> 01:03:42,130
then so how would you do a very

1356
01:03:48,450 --> 01:03:45,910
important mail message back then well

1357
01:03:51,779 --> 01:03:48,460
you send a courier to every single

1358
01:03:54,930 --> 01:03:51,789
employee and they are required to stop

1359
01:03:57,299 --> 01:03:54,940
what they are doing and immediately read

1360
01:03:59,640 --> 01:03:57,309
and acknowledge this memorandum from the

1361
01:04:01,740 --> 01:03:59,650
commanding officer that is a too-hot

1362
01:04:05,990 --> 01:04:01,750
memo and it said that some irresponsible

1363
01:04:09,390 --> 01:04:06,000
person had been discussing bodies and

1364
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:09,400
flying saucers and you will cease and

1365
01:04:14,760 --> 01:04:11,410
desist immediately or

1366
01:04:16,920 --> 01:04:14,770
face imprisonment and fines so I mean

1367
01:04:19,049 --> 01:04:16,930
that raises a whole bunch of questions

1368
01:04:21,839 --> 01:04:19,059
how would the base commander know about

1369
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:21,849
the conversation that June had with the

1370
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:24,490
pilot how many conversations were going

1371
01:04:30,240 --> 01:04:26,170
on maybe there was more than one person

1372
01:04:33,210 --> 01:04:30,250
I mean obviously he didn't fly back by

1373
01:04:36,180 --> 01:04:33,220
himself he was part of a flight crew and

1374
01:04:38,370 --> 01:04:36,190
maybe his wasn't the only plane we don't

1375
01:04:40,799 --> 01:04:38,380
know any of that yeah yeah good point

1376
01:04:43,079 --> 01:04:40,809
why would all the wreckage be on one you

1377
01:04:45,870 --> 01:04:43,089
know one cargo it probably wouldn't be

1378
01:04:48,210 --> 01:04:45,880
yeah like let's what's even to make it

1379
01:04:49,859 --> 01:04:48,220
even harder for anyone to trace let's

1380
01:04:52,589 --> 01:04:49,869
spread it out let's put it at different

1381
01:04:55,140 --> 01:04:52,599
places like you just don't know we don't

1382
01:04:57,870 --> 01:04:55,150
know and that's that's the problem so

1383
01:05:00,539 --> 01:04:57,880
you know I always I like the word a

1384
01:05:03,510 --> 01:05:00,549
tantalising because that's that's what

1385
01:05:06,900 --> 01:05:03,520
describes a lot of the information that

1386
01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:06,910
I got from June I mean I wish that she

1387
01:05:10,470 --> 01:05:08,770
had lived longer I wish that I could

1388
01:05:12,900 --> 01:05:10,480
have asked her about 10,000 more

1389
01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:12,910
questions I don't know that she would

1390
01:05:17,579 --> 01:05:15,010
have known any more than what she gave

1391
01:05:20,069 --> 01:05:17,589
me when there's no way no way I can ever

1392
01:05:22,380 --> 01:05:20,079
know that but you know like I said she

1393
01:05:26,279 --> 01:05:22,390
was very careful to always say I don't

1394
01:05:28,609 --> 01:05:26,289
remember that or you know I didn't know

1395
01:05:31,319 --> 01:05:28,619
that like she told me that the bodies

1396
01:05:35,099 --> 01:05:31,329
people said that the bodies from the

1397
01:05:36,690 --> 01:05:35,109
crash went to the aeromed lab I asked

1398
01:05:39,089 --> 01:05:36,700
her I said well did you ever go there

1399
01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:39,099
she said no I had no reason to go there

1400
01:05:43,170 --> 01:05:41,410
and you couldn't get in or is you you

1401
01:05:44,730 --> 01:05:43,180
not only have to have the right security

1402
01:05:47,430 --> 01:05:44,740
clearance you have to have a

1403
01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:47,440
need-to-know right which you know even

1404
01:05:52,650 --> 01:05:50,890
our top officials and president standing

1405
01:05:54,440 --> 01:05:52,660
presidents don't even have the need to

1406
01:05:56,819 --> 01:05:54,450
know many times compartmentalized

1407
01:05:58,950 --> 01:05:56,829
security yeah yeah so I would imagine

1408
01:06:00,660 --> 01:05:58,960
yeah why would she have the clearance to

1409
01:06:03,299 --> 01:06:00,670
especially you know there's a big

1410
01:06:05,630 --> 01:06:03,309
difference between possible wreckage

1411
01:06:09,900 --> 01:06:05,640
metal alloys anything like that and

1412
01:06:13,410 --> 01:06:09,910
victims of a crash or bodies of a

1413
01:06:15,450 --> 01:06:13,420
possible et I yeah it's the gap is huge

1414
01:06:17,010 --> 01:06:15,460
when it comes to that well I mean

1415
01:06:19,319 --> 01:06:17,020
another thing that really stood out for

1416
01:06:23,359 --> 01:06:19,329
me James in the transcriptions was uh

1417
01:06:25,170 --> 01:06:23,369
June's talk about Project Blue Book and

1418
01:06:28,530 --> 01:06:25,180
what this action

1419
01:06:30,630 --> 01:06:28,540
was in terms of kind of a smokescreen I

1420
01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:30,640
guess would be a good way to put it

1421
01:06:34,079 --> 01:06:32,170
would you mind sort of running us

1422
01:06:36,660 --> 01:06:34,089
through your conversation with her about

1423
01:06:39,059 --> 01:06:36,670
Project Blue Book its relevancy and I

1424
01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:39,069
guess II relevancy when it comes to

1425
01:06:43,650 --> 01:06:41,410
actual UFO investigation

1426
01:06:46,680 --> 01:06:43,660
well she verified for me what many

1427
01:06:49,079 --> 01:06:46,690
others had long suspected which was that

1428
01:06:50,130 --> 01:06:49,089
the best cases were shunted off

1429
01:06:53,690 --> 01:06:50,140
somewhere else

1430
01:06:57,089 --> 01:06:53,700
there were already regulations in place

1431
01:06:59,970 --> 01:06:57,099
as I recall the acronym as Gienapp J

1432
01:07:03,329 --> 01:06:59,980
anap there's a regulation that goes with

1433
01:07:06,809 --> 01:07:03,339
that that were already had established a

1434
01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:06,819
protocol for reporting UFOs to higher

1435
01:07:11,940 --> 01:07:08,890
and higher levels of command

1436
01:07:15,210 --> 01:07:11,950
you've got the twining memo Nathan

1437
01:07:17,819 --> 01:07:15,220
twining ended up retire I think he was a

1438
01:07:21,420 --> 01:07:17,829
three or a four star general he would

1439
01:07:24,690 --> 01:07:21,430
have been June's boss multiple levels

1440
01:07:29,670 --> 01:07:24,700
above her in charge of the air material

1441
01:07:32,430 --> 01:07:29,680
command and he wrote a memorandum to his

1442
01:07:35,309 --> 01:07:32,440
boss that at the time that he wrote the

1443
01:07:35,910 --> 01:07:35,319
memorandum that memorandum was top

1444
01:07:38,609 --> 01:07:35,920
secret

1445
01:07:41,039 --> 01:07:38,619
it has since of course been Declassified

1446
01:07:43,799 --> 01:07:41,049
and is one of the most interesting of

1447
01:07:46,710 --> 01:07:43,809
all of the documents that are available

1448
01:07:50,460 --> 01:07:46,720
from that period of time because in

1449
01:07:54,030 --> 01:07:50,470
there he says that the UFO phenomena is

1450
01:07:56,880 --> 01:07:54,040
real and not fictitious and then he goes

1451
01:07:58,970 --> 01:07:56,890
on to describe that the the craft are

1452
01:08:01,890 --> 01:07:58,980
frequently described as circular and

1453
01:08:04,740 --> 01:08:01,900
metallic and that they exhibit a

1454
01:08:07,380 --> 01:08:04,750
performance technology that they can't

1455
01:08:10,980 --> 01:08:07,390
duplicate and they have no idea who

1456
01:08:13,770 --> 01:08:10,990
could and so when you think about who

1457
01:08:16,709 --> 01:08:13,780
this man was and the fact that he's

1458
01:08:20,189 --> 01:08:16,719
writing to his boss he would have been

1459
01:08:24,390 --> 01:08:20,199
extremely careful about what he drew as

1460
01:08:28,019 --> 01:08:24,400
a conclusion so that's pretty solid

1461
01:08:30,870 --> 01:08:28,029
evidence that something was going on or

1462
01:08:32,970 --> 01:08:30,880
may still be going on absolutely I mean

1463
01:08:35,430 --> 01:08:32,980
we have the recent Pentagon program

1464
01:08:38,569 --> 01:08:35,440
which we'll get to in a little bit so I

1465
01:08:40,939 --> 01:08:38,579
guess sort of to wrap up the June crane

1466
01:08:44,269 --> 01:08:40,949
story here James what what do you make

1467
01:08:47,180 --> 01:08:44,279
of her entire claims now you know her

1468
01:08:49,700 --> 01:08:47,190
now better than anyone in the field

1469
01:08:51,769 --> 01:08:49,710
probably did you you were face to face

1470
01:08:53,749 --> 01:08:51,779
with this woman you heard all of her

1471
01:08:56,269 --> 01:08:53,759
stories having the knowledge and

1472
01:08:58,490 --> 01:08:56,279
experience as an investigator with law

1473
01:09:00,799 --> 01:08:58,500
enforcement other Roswell investigators

1474
01:09:02,689 --> 01:09:00,809
you know some of them don't put so much

1475
01:09:04,339 --> 01:09:02,699
stock into the whole June crane affair

1476
01:09:07,640 --> 01:09:04,349
so what would you say to those people

1477
01:09:09,109 --> 01:09:07,650
who sort of detract this story well I

1478
01:09:11,180 --> 01:09:09,119
don't think that they've really studied

1479
01:09:14,990 --> 01:09:11,190
her story and they probably have not

1480
01:09:17,450 --> 01:09:15,000
studied my claims about her I don't make

1481
01:09:19,849 --> 01:09:17,460
more or less out of her than she would

1482
01:09:23,359 --> 01:09:19,859
have wanted she was a very honest

1483
01:09:26,510 --> 01:09:23,369
sincere woman who went through some very

1484
01:09:30,410 --> 01:09:26,520
important times and she knew bits and

1485
01:09:31,010 --> 01:09:30,420
pieces of this entire puzzle but not the

1486
01:09:34,099 --> 01:09:31,020
whole thing

1487
01:09:36,379 --> 01:09:34,109
she never claimed that she didn't claim

1488
01:09:36,950 --> 01:09:36,389
other than the time that she handled the

1489
01:09:39,410 --> 01:09:36,960
metal

1490
01:09:43,220 --> 01:09:39,420
she didn't claim to be a smoking gun

1491
01:09:46,010 --> 01:09:43,230
witness and when I met her I went into

1492
01:09:48,549 --> 01:09:46,020
her home and she did have the

1493
01:09:51,919 --> 01:09:48,559
biographies of Verner von Braun and

1494
01:09:55,370 --> 01:09:51,929
whatnot but she did not have two shelves

1495
01:09:58,040 --> 01:09:55,380
of UFO books she didn't know any of the

1496
01:10:00,770 --> 01:09:58,050
rest of this she was telling me based

1497
01:10:03,680 --> 01:10:00,780
upon what she learned while she worked

1498
01:10:07,040 --> 01:10:03,690
there and I think that she tried to the

1499
01:10:10,129 --> 01:10:07,050
best of her ability to give me a sincere

1500
01:10:12,859 --> 01:10:10,139
and honest account and I think I could

1501
01:10:15,799 --> 01:10:12,869
have gotten her sworn in as a witness in

1502
01:10:19,010 --> 01:10:15,809
any court of law so that that would be

1503
01:10:22,520 --> 01:10:19,020
my answer she is what she is her

1504
01:10:26,689 --> 01:10:22,530
testimony stands as do the testimonies

1505
01:10:31,189 --> 01:10:26,699
of numerous other people who know parts

1506
01:10:33,080 --> 01:10:31,199
of the cover-up with a capital C right

1507
01:10:36,109 --> 01:10:33,090
and it's just piecing those together

1508
01:10:38,240 --> 01:10:36,119
that were still trying to do up until

1509
01:10:40,160 --> 01:10:38,250
today which is challenging because all

1510
01:10:42,530 --> 01:10:40,170
of our firsthand witnesses involved are

1511
01:10:45,350 --> 01:10:42,540
pretty much gone at this point you know

1512
01:10:48,799 --> 01:10:45,360
not exactly firsthand but someone you

1513
01:10:50,439 --> 01:10:48,809
met was both Glenn Dennis and Frank Iero

1514
01:10:52,340 --> 01:10:50,449
I would love to hear about those

1515
01:10:55,280 --> 01:10:52,350
experiences

1516
01:10:59,060 --> 01:10:55,290
when I took a copy of the June Crane 10

1517
01:11:02,710 --> 01:10:59,070
transcript and I donated it to the UFO

1518
01:11:06,050 --> 01:11:02,720
museum which is a converted Theatre in

1519
01:11:08,810 --> 01:11:06,060
on Main Street in downtown Roswell I

1520
01:11:11,540 --> 01:11:08,820
went in there and I explained who I was

1521
01:11:14,630 --> 01:11:11,550
and that I wanted to donate this they

1522
01:11:18,890 --> 01:11:14,640
have a big research library by the way a

1523
01:11:21,020 --> 01:11:18,900
very complete one and I was met by Glenn

1524
01:11:22,940 --> 01:11:21,030
Dennis of all people and I was you know

1525
01:11:26,300 --> 01:11:22,950
I knew the Glenn Dennis story so I was

1526
01:11:28,970 --> 01:11:26,310
like in awe that I would meet him and so

1527
01:11:30,950 --> 01:11:28,980
I gave him the book and he told me that

1528
01:11:32,150 --> 01:11:30,960
he really he looked at it and he said

1529
01:11:34,340 --> 01:11:32,160
well this has obviously been very

1530
01:11:36,770 --> 01:11:34,350
carefully put together and we will

1531
01:11:40,490 --> 01:11:36,780
certainly put it in the library and as

1532
01:11:42,350 --> 01:11:40,500
his way of saying thank you we got to go

1533
01:11:44,300 --> 01:11:42,360
into an office and sit down and have

1534
01:11:48,830 --> 01:11:44,310
coffee together with nobody else around

1535
01:11:51,830 --> 01:11:48,840
and that was fascinating to me I got a

1536
01:11:55,160 --> 01:11:51,840
chance to do the you know what kind of a

1537
01:11:57,500 --> 01:11:55,170
witness is this the saddest part of the

1538
01:12:00,650 --> 01:11:57,510
Glenn Dennis story is that he admitted

1539
01:12:04,550 --> 01:12:00,660
to me that he had lied to UFO

1540
01:12:06,740 --> 01:12:04,560
researchers and you will still hear UFO

1541
01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:06,750
researchers who will swear up and down

1542
01:12:13,310 --> 01:12:10,290
that this never happened I don't know I

1543
01:12:16,010 --> 01:12:13,320
wasn't there I freely admit that but

1544
01:12:19,490 --> 01:12:16,020
here's how it was told to me Glenn

1545
01:12:21,740 --> 01:12:19,500
Dennis says he was a young man he worked

1546
01:12:24,890 --> 01:12:21,750
at the Ballard funeral home which still

1547
01:12:28,700 --> 01:12:24,900
exists on South Main Street in Roswell

1548
01:12:31,130 --> 01:12:28,710
and he gets a phone call from Walker

1549
01:12:33,770 --> 01:12:31,140
Army Airfield that was the name of the

1550
01:12:36,920 --> 01:12:33,780
base there in Roswell wanting to know

1551
01:12:40,010 --> 01:12:36,930
how many child sized coffins they had in

1552
01:12:42,680 --> 01:12:40,020
stock and he said they only had one and

1553
01:12:45,320 --> 01:12:42,690
they said that's not enough can you get

1554
01:12:49,580 --> 01:12:45,330
more and he said yes but it'll take a

1555
01:12:52,250 --> 01:12:49,590
couple days later on that day he gets

1556
01:12:55,490 --> 01:12:52,260
another call where they wanted to know

1557
01:12:58,700 --> 01:12:55,500
about how you would preserve a body that

1558
01:13:01,640 --> 01:12:58,710
you found out in the desert without

1559
01:13:04,970 --> 01:13:01,650
contaminating it and he told them dry

1560
01:13:05,839 --> 01:13:04,980
ice would be the best way to do it the

1561
01:13:10,009 --> 01:13:05,849
next part of

1562
01:13:13,189 --> 01:13:10,019
story is in small towns like Roswell was

1563
01:13:16,250 --> 01:13:13,199
back then they did not have a paramedic

1564
01:13:19,189 --> 01:13:16,260
ambulance service if you called for an

1565
01:13:20,479 --> 01:13:19,199
ambulance you got the hearse because of

1566
01:13:22,639 --> 01:13:20,489
you think about it the hearse is the

1567
01:13:25,009 --> 01:13:22,649
only kind of a vehicle that's set up to

1568
01:13:27,439 --> 01:13:25,019
carry somebody on a stretcher so he

1569
01:13:29,839 --> 01:13:27,449
ended up there was an airman who was

1570
01:13:32,659 --> 01:13:29,849
injured in a motorcycle accident he

1571
01:13:34,060 --> 01:13:32,669
drives him back to the base after the

1572
01:13:37,310 --> 01:13:34,070
guys have been treated at the hospital

1573
01:13:40,159 --> 01:13:37,320
we gets there there are like way too

1574
01:13:43,159 --> 01:13:40,169
many vehicles and people beyond normal

1575
01:13:46,099 --> 01:13:43,169
and everybody is really upset there's

1576
01:13:48,259 --> 01:13:46,109
like a like a busy bee hive

1577
01:13:52,310 --> 01:13:48,269
a hornet's nest that's been stirred up

1578
01:13:54,619 --> 01:13:52,320
he goes in there and he had free access

1579
01:13:59,149 --> 01:13:54,629
to the place this is you know this is

1580
01:13:59,929 --> 01:13:59,159
1947 it's a small town everybody knows

1581
01:14:02,779 --> 01:13:59,939
everybody

1582
01:14:05,270 --> 01:14:02,789
he's been on and off that base many many

1583
01:14:05,689 --> 01:14:05,280
times dropping people off picking them

1584
01:14:08,919 --> 01:14:05,699
up

1585
01:14:11,029 --> 01:14:08,929
you name it etc he goes in there and

1586
01:14:13,369 --> 01:14:11,039
there are all these people that he's

1587
01:14:16,549 --> 01:14:13,379
never seen before he goes by this one

1588
01:14:19,549 --> 01:14:16,559
particular room the door opens and there

1589
01:14:22,879 --> 01:14:19,559
is this young nurse who he has friends

1590
01:14:24,859 --> 01:14:22,889
with now I don't know Glenn was married

1591
01:14:26,330 --> 01:14:24,869
for many years and I have no idea

1592
01:14:28,639 --> 01:14:26,340
whether he was unfaithful to his wife

1593
01:14:32,089 --> 01:14:28,649
had an affair with this woman whatever

1594
01:14:34,549 --> 01:14:32,099
no that's been speculated on - all I

1595
01:14:36,889 --> 01:14:34,559
know was that he really cared about this

1596
01:14:39,139 --> 01:14:36,899
woman and he was friends with her she

1597
01:14:40,669 --> 01:14:39,149
comes out of this room and she says

1598
01:14:44,209 --> 01:14:40,679
Glenn you got to get out of here right

1599
01:14:45,859 --> 01:14:44,219
now and he says well what's going on he

1600
01:14:49,939 --> 01:14:45,869
says you just got to leave you got to

1601
01:14:52,909 --> 01:14:49,949
get out of here right now and he takes

1602
01:14:55,849 --> 01:14:52,919
her advice and starts to leave and he

1603
01:14:57,619 --> 01:14:55,859
gets confronted by some military people

1604
01:14:59,629 --> 01:14:57,629
who want to know who he is why he's

1605
01:15:01,549 --> 01:14:59,639
there and everything else and he

1606
01:15:04,429 --> 01:15:01,559
basically tells him off and says you

1607
01:15:06,409 --> 01:15:04,439
know I'm a civilian and I can you know

1608
01:15:09,319 --> 01:15:06,419
do whatever I want and I don't have to

1609
01:15:11,599 --> 01:15:09,329
answer to you and there's some officer

1610
01:15:13,429 --> 01:15:11,609
in charge who makes the comment you know

1611
01:15:15,080 --> 01:15:13,439
you can be taken out in the desert and

1612
01:15:17,070 --> 01:15:15,090
your bones will bleach in the Sun like

1613
01:15:20,490 --> 01:15:17,080
anybody else's so

1614
01:15:23,970 --> 01:15:20,500
he leaves needless to say and a few days

1615
01:15:26,730 --> 01:15:23,980
later he finally gets to socialize with

1616
01:15:29,360 --> 01:15:26,740
this nurse and I think they're back on

1617
01:15:34,200 --> 01:15:29,370
the base and they're having a beer and

1618
01:15:36,180 --> 01:15:34,210
she is really really upset and she said

1619
01:15:38,280 --> 01:15:36,190
that she did not get the phone call

1620
01:15:40,890 --> 01:15:38,290
telling her not to report to work and

1621
01:15:42,390 --> 01:15:40,900
that she had gone into work and when she

1622
01:15:45,450 --> 01:15:42,400
was there there were all these people

1623
01:15:48,450 --> 01:15:45,460
that she didn't recognize and she ended

1624
01:15:52,290 --> 01:15:48,460
up being ordered to participate in an

1625
01:15:54,900 --> 01:15:52,300
autopsy and it was an autopsy of an

1626
01:15:57,600 --> 01:15:54,910
alien as she actually sketched some

1627
01:15:59,760 --> 01:15:57,610
things on a cocktail napkin and when

1628
01:16:03,600 --> 01:15:59,770
Glenn wanted to keep the napkin she set

1629
01:16:07,350 --> 01:16:03,610
fire to it in the ashtray and the part

1630
01:16:10,010 --> 01:16:07,360
that gets complicated is she resigned

1631
01:16:13,830 --> 01:16:10,020
her commission and left the service and

1632
01:16:16,050 --> 01:16:13,840
literally became a nun Glenn swore to

1633
01:16:16,950 --> 01:16:16,060
her that he would never reveal her

1634
01:16:20,850 --> 01:16:16,960
identity

1635
01:16:22,890 --> 01:16:20,860
Glenn's story is that in the I believe

1636
01:16:26,670 --> 01:16:22,900
the early 80s when the Roswell story

1637
01:16:31,620 --> 01:16:26,680
started to break he felt that he was

1638
01:16:34,080 --> 01:16:31,630
being harassed by UFO researchers and in

1639
01:16:36,630 --> 01:16:34,090
order to get rid of them he made up a

1640
01:16:39,390 --> 01:16:36,640
name for the nurse instead of just

1641
01:16:41,640 --> 01:16:39,400
saying I'm not going to identify her

1642
01:16:43,710 --> 01:16:41,650
because I promised her I wouldn't and he

1643
01:16:47,280 --> 01:16:43,720
told me that that was one of his biggest

1644
01:16:49,130 --> 01:16:47,290
regrets was that he told that lie he

1645
01:16:52,710 --> 01:16:49,140
said he should have never done it

1646
01:16:54,840 --> 01:16:52,720
because it just made everything worse so

1647
01:16:57,780 --> 01:16:54,850
that you know that was the Glenn Dennis

1648
01:16:59,880 --> 01:16:57,790
story and I I walked away with a whole

1649
01:17:03,360 --> 01:16:59,890
new level of respect and appreciation

1650
01:17:05,730 --> 01:17:03,370
and I guess it it was the same kind of

1651
01:17:07,980 --> 01:17:05,740
feeling that I had when I would sit up

1652
01:17:12,120 --> 01:17:07,990
late with Jun and I would hear these

1653
01:17:14,700 --> 01:17:12,130
stories about what it was like in 1947

1654
01:17:17,700 --> 01:17:14,710
it was like getting a little window into

1655
01:17:19,950 --> 01:17:17,710
an another time period he's what you see

1656
01:17:24,270 --> 01:17:19,960
he was what you see is what you get kind

1657
01:17:26,850 --> 01:17:24,280
of a man he was a gentleman who grew up

1658
01:17:29,820 --> 01:17:26,860
in the southwestt a man's word is his

1659
01:17:30,899 --> 01:17:29,830
bond you know you make a promise you

1660
01:17:34,140 --> 01:17:30,909
keep a prom

1661
01:17:37,050 --> 01:17:34,150
did he lie yes he lied he admitted that

1662
01:17:37,740 --> 01:17:37,060
he lied I don't know what to make of

1663
01:17:40,160 --> 01:17:37,750
that

1664
01:17:44,250 --> 01:17:40,170
I guess history will have to decide

1665
01:17:48,390 --> 01:17:44,260
Frank Iero was an unexpected wonderful

1666
01:17:51,870 --> 01:17:48,400
event that happened in 2017 it was sad

1667
01:17:53,879 --> 01:17:51,880
that she passed away not too long after

1668
01:17:56,459 --> 01:17:53,889
we met her and got to know her but I

1669
01:17:59,540 --> 01:17:56,469
never expected to have this experience I

1670
01:18:02,040 --> 01:17:59,550
had met Frank Iero a couple times

1671
01:18:03,780 --> 01:18:02,050
because there were about two three years

1672
01:18:07,140 --> 01:18:03,790
there where we went back to Roswell

1673
01:18:09,270 --> 01:18:07,150
every year for the UFO festival and then

1674
01:18:11,220 --> 01:18:09,280
of course while you're there you present

1675
01:18:13,200 --> 01:18:11,230
and then you also have a table and

1676
01:18:15,120 --> 01:18:13,210
people come by and they look at your

1677
01:18:17,340 --> 01:18:15,130
books and and you get to talk to

1678
01:18:19,100 --> 01:18:17,350
everybody and it's kind of fun well I

1679
01:18:22,709 --> 01:18:19,110
had met Frank Iero because she had

1680
01:18:26,189 --> 01:18:22,719
everybody loved her she was a friend of

1681
01:18:29,129 --> 01:18:26,199
the UFO movement and of the museum in

1682
01:18:31,970 --> 01:18:29,139
particular well they always have a

1683
01:18:34,860 --> 01:18:31,980
parade every year during the Roswell UFO

1684
01:18:38,280 --> 01:18:34,870
festival and they take all the speakers

1685
01:18:41,250 --> 01:18:38,290
and the key people and they put them on

1686
01:18:43,080 --> 01:18:41,260
a float and you drive around with you

1687
01:18:46,229 --> 01:18:43,090
know thousands of people on the sidewalk

1688
01:18:49,500 --> 01:18:46,239
and there's there's fireworks and lights

1689
01:18:52,530 --> 01:18:49,510
and kids in alien costumes I mean it's

1690
01:18:54,720 --> 01:18:52,540
it's a big deal it's a lot of fun I sat

1691
01:18:57,510 --> 01:18:54,730
next to her while we were on the in this

1692
01:19:00,270 --> 01:18:57,520
parade and we got to swap life stories

1693
01:19:04,129 --> 01:19:00,280
and I told her it needless to say about

1694
01:19:07,379 --> 01:19:04,139
June well this woman is in her 80s and

1695
01:19:09,090 --> 01:19:07,389
just recounting the story of what

1696
01:19:14,399 --> 01:19:09,100
happened to her when she was 12 years

1697
01:19:17,850 --> 01:19:14,409
old you could still see the fear in her

1698
01:19:21,450 --> 01:19:17,860
eyes and feel how terrified she was

1699
01:19:24,030 --> 01:19:21,460
because of this event and back when she

1700
01:19:28,020 --> 01:19:24,040
was 12 years old her father was a

1701
01:19:32,129 --> 01:19:28,030
fireman for the city of Roswell and they

1702
01:19:35,459 --> 01:19:32,139
lived in town and while she was coming

1703
01:19:37,680 --> 01:19:35,469
home one day she stopped by her father's

1704
01:19:40,410 --> 01:19:37,690
place of work to get a ride she had been

1705
01:19:43,680 --> 01:19:40,420
to the dentist and there was a New

1706
01:19:44,790 --> 01:19:43,690
Mexico State policeman there who was

1707
01:19:47,700 --> 01:19:44,800
showing off

1708
01:19:50,250 --> 01:19:47,710
this weird medal that he had found

1709
01:19:53,669 --> 01:19:50,260
somewhere and there was talk about a

1710
01:19:55,620 --> 01:19:53,679
crashed vehicle etc well this was

1711
01:19:57,680 --> 01:19:55,630
extraordinary and she got to handle the

1712
01:20:01,350 --> 01:19:57,690
medal and she was very impressed by this

1713
01:20:04,290 --> 01:20:01,360
she was not quite so impressed when not

1714
01:20:07,530 --> 01:20:04,300
too long thereafter words she was home

1715
01:20:10,680 --> 01:20:07,540
with her mother and a military officer

1716
01:20:13,530 --> 01:20:10,690
and two other soldiers showed up at her

1717
01:20:16,200 --> 01:20:13,540
home and basically pushed their way into

1718
01:20:19,169 --> 01:20:16,210
the house and started telling her mother

1719
01:20:22,620 --> 01:20:19,179
and her that under no circumstances

1720
01:20:26,729 --> 01:20:22,630
would they ever discuss anything about a

1721
01:20:29,310 --> 01:20:26,739
crashed UFO or the medal and he this man

1722
01:20:32,669 --> 01:20:29,320
looked right at Frank Iero bear in mind

1723
01:20:34,859 --> 01:20:32,679
she's a 12 year old girl and says that

1724
01:20:37,950 --> 01:20:34,869
if she ever talked about it he would

1725
01:20:40,379 --> 01:20:37,960
come back and murder her and her entire

1726
01:20:42,359 --> 01:20:40,389
family and take them out in the desert

1727
01:20:45,569 --> 01:20:42,369
and get rid of their bodies now the

1728
01:20:48,089 --> 01:20:45,579
weird part is is that years later that

1729
01:20:50,879 --> 01:20:48,099
one of the places she lived the phone

1730
01:20:53,359 --> 01:20:50,889
company came out to do a repair and the

1731
01:20:57,419 --> 01:20:53,369
repairman came to her afterwards and

1732
01:21:00,750 --> 01:20:57,429
showed her that somebody had put a tap

1733
01:21:02,879 --> 01:21:00,760
on her phone yeah I mean this is strange

1734
01:21:05,819 --> 01:21:02,889
stuff very strange and I've heard this

1735
01:21:09,120 --> 01:21:05,829
from other members of prominent families

1736
01:21:12,990 --> 01:21:09,130
involved with this case as well exact

1737
01:21:16,140 --> 01:21:13,000
thing and the part that was a good part

1738
01:21:18,359 --> 01:21:16,150
of this story is that one day a man

1739
01:21:23,129 --> 01:21:18,369
showed up on her door with a bouquet of

1740
01:21:25,260 --> 01:21:23,139
flowers and he said I am the son of that

1741
01:21:29,189 --> 01:21:25,270
officer who threatened you when you were

1742
01:21:32,459 --> 01:21:29,199
12 years old and he said that his father

1743
01:21:35,790 --> 01:21:32,469
was a very brutal man and that he was

1744
01:21:38,250 --> 01:21:35,800
there to apologize and make amends and

1745
01:21:42,020 --> 01:21:38,260
that so that you know that's just a

1746
01:21:44,430 --> 01:21:42,030
whole fascinating piece of history and

1747
01:21:46,530 --> 01:21:44,440
the next we turned out we were all

1748
01:21:49,439 --> 01:21:46,540
staying in the same hotel there in

1749
01:21:52,109 --> 01:21:49,449
Roswell and the next morning we all had

1750
01:21:54,299 --> 01:21:52,119
breakfast together before we went our

1751
01:21:58,109 --> 01:21:54,309
separate ways and I got this wonderful

1752
01:21:58,650 --> 01:21:58,119
photo of my wife Joann and Frankie

1753
01:22:01,470 --> 01:21:58,660
sitting

1754
01:22:03,960 --> 01:22:01,480
gather at a table and that may be that

1755
01:22:06,900 --> 01:22:03,970
may be one of the last if not the last

1756
01:22:09,600 --> 01:22:06,910
photos that was taken of her because she

1757
01:22:11,940 --> 01:22:09,610
passed away peacefully in her sleep just

1758
01:22:16,260 --> 01:22:11,950
a couple of weeks later and she was an

1759
01:22:19,170 --> 01:22:16,270
amazing lady and a lovely bright spirit

1760
01:22:23,280 --> 01:22:19,180
and I felt really honored to meet her

1761
01:22:25,200 --> 01:22:23,290
and that there's see when I here you

1762
01:22:27,570 --> 01:22:25,210
know you you mentioned the word Roswell

1763
01:22:29,070 --> 01:22:27,580
to some people and they kind of laugh

1764
01:22:32,550 --> 01:22:29,080
and they thought you know you'll hear

1765
01:22:35,880 --> 01:22:32,560
all the usual clichés about little green

1766
01:22:37,860 --> 01:22:35,890
man blah blah blah and then to me when I

1767
01:22:40,260 --> 01:22:37,870
hear the word Roswell aside from the

1768
01:22:43,520 --> 01:22:40,270
fact that I love that town it's a

1769
01:22:45,990 --> 01:22:43,530
wonderful little city I think about an

1770
01:22:47,730 --> 01:22:46,000
investigation that has been going on for

1771
01:22:52,380 --> 01:22:47,740
over thirty years

1772
01:22:55,740 --> 01:22:52,390
that involves over 600 witnesses with

1773
01:22:57,690 --> 01:22:55,750
interlocking testimony you know do we

1774
01:22:59,700 --> 01:22:57,700
have the smoking gun well if somebody

1775
01:23:02,940 --> 01:22:59,710
does I wish they would they would bring

1776
01:23:06,090 --> 01:23:02,950
it out we probably don't but we know

1777
01:23:10,380 --> 01:23:06,100
that something really extraordinary

1778
01:23:13,050 --> 01:23:10,390
crashed on Mac Brazil's ranch on the

1779
01:23:16,290 --> 01:23:13,060
July 4th weekend of 1947

1780
01:23:19,890 --> 01:23:16,300
and we know that the military went to

1781
01:23:24,080 --> 01:23:19,900
extreme lengths to recover everything

1782
01:23:27,230 --> 01:23:24,090
and to cover up all trace of that event

1783
01:23:30,390 --> 01:23:27,240
threatening people picking up wreckage

1784
01:23:33,870 --> 01:23:30,400
monitoring citizens for years illegally

1785
01:23:36,810 --> 01:23:33,880
I mean it goes on and on and on we know

1786
01:23:40,110 --> 01:23:36,820
that that's a real event and I I think

1787
01:23:43,380 --> 01:23:40,120
in particular that's thanks to Don

1788
01:23:45,270 --> 01:23:43,390
Schmidt and Tom Kerry who themselves are

1789
01:23:47,220 --> 01:23:45,280
not free of controversy

1790
01:23:51,480 --> 01:23:47,230
you know people expect all of us

1791
01:23:54,000 --> 01:23:51,490
ufologists our UFO researchers to always

1792
01:23:58,350 --> 01:23:54,010
make perfect decisions and always know

1793
01:24:01,320 --> 01:23:58,360
everything and whatnot well I'm sorry to

1794
01:24:03,840 --> 01:24:01,330
disappoint people but all of these

1795
01:24:07,140 --> 01:24:03,850
people myself included we are also

1796
01:24:09,240 --> 01:24:07,150
living our lives and we don't always

1797
01:24:12,089 --> 01:24:09,250
have total knowledge and we don't always

1798
01:24:15,030 --> 01:24:12,099
make the correct decision

1799
01:24:16,950 --> 01:24:15,040
and I'm speaking in reference to you

1800
01:24:20,700 --> 01:24:16,960
know Tom Kerry and Don Schmidt the

1801
01:24:22,919 --> 01:24:20,710
Roswell slides tobacco yes which we

1802
01:24:26,910 --> 01:24:22,929
could you know you could do all you

1803
01:24:30,120 --> 01:24:26,920
probably did do one show or more about

1804
01:24:32,100 --> 01:24:30,130
that yes I know that was a UFO Horror

1805
01:24:34,589 --> 01:24:32,110
Story from one end to the other and a

1806
01:24:37,500 --> 01:24:34,599
valuable lesson that we apparently have

1807
01:24:41,899 --> 01:24:37,510
still not learned that should not take

1808
01:24:45,620 --> 01:24:41,909
away from the wonderful detailed

1809
01:24:49,229 --> 01:24:45,630
extremely exhausting exhaustive research

1810
01:24:51,479 --> 01:24:49,239
that was done by those two men to put

1811
01:24:53,280 --> 01:24:51,489
together the Roswell story I'm very

1812
01:24:55,979 --> 01:24:53,290
honored that they included the June

1813
01:24:58,919 --> 01:24:55,989
story but again just you know having

1814
01:25:00,930 --> 01:24:58,929
that story now a part of the Roswell

1815
01:25:03,959 --> 01:25:00,940
history I think is very important

1816
01:25:05,550 --> 01:25:03,969
because yet it is it's one more person

1817
01:25:08,010 --> 01:25:05,560
willing to come forward like you said

1818
01:25:10,649 --> 01:25:08,020
well a lot of people perceive the

1819
01:25:12,450 --> 01:25:10,659
Roswell case as you know this festival

1820
01:25:14,100 --> 01:25:12,460
to have her every year little green man

1821
01:25:15,839 --> 01:25:14,110
this quirky feeling to it

1822
01:25:17,430 --> 01:25:15,849
this was life or death for a lot of

1823
01:25:20,580 --> 01:25:17,440
these people James the way they were

1824
01:25:23,520 --> 01:25:20,590
questioned the cover-up everything so I

1825
01:25:25,709 --> 01:25:23,530
guess I want to sort of wrap up Roswell

1826
01:25:29,669 --> 01:25:25,719
with this one question for you before we

1827
01:25:32,220 --> 01:25:29,679
move on here of do you think we still

1828
01:25:34,850 --> 01:25:32,230
have a chance of knowing what happened

1829
01:25:37,410 --> 01:25:34,860
out there do you think there's still

1830
01:25:40,020 --> 01:25:37,420
material out there somewhere hidden in

1831
01:25:42,450 --> 01:25:40,030
that desert that we can find that can be

1832
01:25:46,800 --> 01:25:42,460
that smoking gun or is this going to be

1833
01:25:49,319 --> 01:25:46,810
the case that mystifies us until you

1834
01:25:50,459 --> 01:25:49,329
know we all part this earthly plane what

1835
01:25:53,839 --> 01:25:50,469
do you think I know that's a big

1836
01:25:56,760 --> 01:25:53,849
hypothetical boy that's a hypothetical

1837
01:25:59,280 --> 01:25:56,770
in terms of finding wreckage out there I

1838
01:26:01,859 --> 01:25:59,290
would I would defer to my good friend

1839
01:26:04,620 --> 01:26:01,869
Frank Kim blur who does tremendous

1840
01:26:08,700 --> 01:26:04,630
research out there and is thoroughly a

1841
01:26:12,270 --> 01:26:08,710
scientist and so far he has not found

1842
01:26:12,870 --> 01:26:12,280
any wreckage that would pass the smell

1843
01:26:16,169 --> 01:26:12,880
test

1844
01:26:18,720 --> 01:26:16,179
and I think if anybody's going to find

1845
01:26:20,490 --> 01:26:18,730
it he will did they make a mistake

1846
01:26:23,310 --> 01:26:20,500
somewhere and maybe they left something

1847
01:26:25,049 --> 01:26:23,320
behind god I hope so I don't know that

1848
01:26:25,530 --> 01:26:25,059
we're ever going to get the truth about

1849
01:26:29,160 --> 01:26:25,540
Rob

1850
01:26:32,940 --> 01:26:29,170
well or about UFOs until one of two

1851
01:26:35,760 --> 01:26:32,950
things happens one thing is if some

1852
01:26:38,510 --> 01:26:35,770
other event is so overwhelmingly obvious

1853
01:26:42,630 --> 01:26:38,520
that they have to come clean about

1854
01:26:45,390 --> 01:26:42,640
contact with non-human intelligence you

1855
01:26:48,000 --> 01:26:45,400
know where it's a an arrival day

1856
01:26:50,670 --> 01:26:48,010
something that is so big that they can't

1857
01:26:51,990 --> 01:26:50,680
put it under wraps and they managed to

1858
01:26:53,430 --> 01:26:52,000
do that pretty well with the Phoenix

1859
01:26:56,640 --> 01:26:53,440
lights so it would have to be pretty

1860
01:26:59,820 --> 01:26:56,650
spectacular the other thing is if in the

1861
01:27:02,220 --> 01:26:59,830
process we get evidence that they cannot

1862
01:27:05,310 --> 01:27:02,230
get rid of or dispute because as they

1863
01:27:07,530 --> 01:27:05,320
they are it is in their best interest to

1864
01:27:09,450 --> 01:27:07,540
disclose it then they will tell us

1865
01:27:11,070 --> 01:27:09,460
something you got to remember they're

1866
01:27:13,620 --> 01:27:11,080
not going to do it out of the goodness

1867
01:27:16,470 --> 01:27:13,630
of their hearts they're going to do it

1868
01:27:19,530 --> 01:27:16,480
because there is a political strategic

1869
01:27:22,230 --> 01:27:19,540
or military reason to disclose that's

1870
01:27:25,320 --> 01:27:22,240
their job you know it's not they don't

1871
01:27:27,090 --> 01:27:25,330
see things the way we do you know they

1872
01:27:29,610 --> 01:27:27,100
would tell you well there their job is

1873
01:27:32,130 --> 01:27:29,620
to protect us and that there's some

1874
01:27:35,400 --> 01:27:32,140
national security or intelligence reason

1875
01:27:38,930 --> 01:27:35,410
why they need to conceal this story and

1876
01:27:42,750 --> 01:27:38,940
or use it to manipulate the situation

1877
01:27:45,140 --> 01:27:42,760
see we are also part of game everybody

1878
01:27:49,320 --> 01:27:45,150
you and I everybody in the UFO community

1879
01:27:51,600 --> 01:27:49,330
we are also subject to manipulation and

1880
01:27:55,830 --> 01:27:51,610
that's one of the hardest things is to

1881
01:27:57,480 --> 01:27:55,840
know when you're being played so no I I

1882
01:28:00,330 --> 01:27:57,490
don't think it's gonna happen anytime

1883
01:28:03,660 --> 01:28:00,340
soon but I'm not giving up on it I'm

1884
01:28:06,330 --> 01:28:03,670
excited for the future of investigating

1885
01:28:09,390 --> 01:28:06,340
Roswell and beyond but at the same time

1886
01:28:12,240 --> 01:28:09,400
it is sobering as well too to know that

1887
01:28:13,740 --> 01:28:12,250
possibly we never may get that answer so

1888
01:28:17,580 --> 01:28:13,750
many researchers have left this world

1889
01:28:20,340 --> 01:28:17,590
not knowing what happened at Roswell or

1890
01:28:24,810 --> 01:28:20,350
not getting the truth they saw it for so

1891
01:28:27,270 --> 01:28:24,820
long so it's it is a game a game that we

1892
01:28:28,950 --> 01:28:27,280
don't know really who is in control of

1893
01:28:32,210 --> 01:28:28,960
whether it's a nonhuman intelligence

1894
01:28:35,190 --> 01:28:32,220
whether it's you know military

1895
01:28:36,990 --> 01:28:35,200
governmental it's all just one big game

1896
01:28:38,729 --> 01:28:37,000
that we're all playing and trying to

1897
01:28:41,880 --> 01:28:38,739
figure out

1898
01:28:45,270 --> 01:28:41,890
it's messy it's exciting it's terrifying

1899
01:28:47,070 --> 01:28:45,280
it's everything in between but I don't

1900
01:28:49,890 --> 01:28:47,080
know what to make of all of it man but

1901
01:28:52,709 --> 01:28:49,900
um you know sort of dovetailing off of

1902
01:28:55,500 --> 01:28:52,719
that and moving away from Roswell a lot

1903
01:28:57,840 --> 01:28:55,510
of our listeners would be interested to

1904
01:29:01,050 --> 01:28:57,850
know about your stance with MUFON the

1905
01:29:04,220 --> 01:29:01,060
mutual UFO organization now you left the

1906
01:29:06,930 --> 01:29:04,230
organization last year and you rejoined

1907
01:29:09,570 --> 01:29:06,940
recently so you got its Alice man what

1908
01:29:11,760 --> 01:29:09,580
made you do both of these things that's

1909
01:29:12,660 --> 01:29:11,770
the second time that I've quit I have to

1910
01:29:16,890 --> 01:29:12,670
say I

1911
01:29:19,650 --> 01:29:16,900
I guess it's getting to be a habit the

1912
01:29:21,270 --> 01:29:19,660
rosie relationship yes yes sometimes it

1913
01:29:24,300 --> 01:29:21,280
is a love-hate relationship and of

1914
01:29:26,190 --> 01:29:24,310
course it's a large organization next

1915
01:29:30,270 --> 01:29:26,200
year will be the 50th anniversary it

1916
01:29:34,229 --> 01:29:30,280
started in 1969 after Project Blue Book

1917
01:29:36,720 --> 01:29:34,239
ended and I have to say I'm back in

1918
01:29:38,550 --> 01:29:36,730
MUFON but it's with my eyes open I'm not

1919
01:29:40,620 --> 01:29:38,560
it doesn't mean that I drank the

1920
01:29:43,530 --> 01:29:40,630
kool-aid it doesn't mean that I slept

1921
01:29:47,640 --> 01:29:43,540
too close to an alien seed pod and woke

1922
01:29:49,979 --> 01:29:47,650
up as somebody else it means that the

1923
01:29:52,709 --> 01:29:49,989
field of ufology looks like a desert to

1924
01:29:55,860 --> 01:29:52,719
me I couldn't move on because I was

1925
01:30:00,180 --> 01:29:55,870
angry at the people in charge for not

1926
01:30:02,340 --> 01:30:00,190
more blatantly condemning a racist state

1927
01:30:04,860 --> 01:30:02,350
director right to make a long story

1928
01:30:06,300 --> 01:30:04,870
short and I don't want to go through all

1929
01:30:08,670 --> 01:30:06,310
of that I mean you can go on the

1930
01:30:10,709 --> 01:30:08,680
internet and dig up the whole thing yeah

1931
01:30:13,110 --> 01:30:10,719
we covered it briefly on the show in the

1932
01:30:16,440 --> 01:30:13,120
past so yeah our listeners know where to

1933
01:30:18,990 --> 01:30:16,450
turn to hear that whole story and of

1934
01:30:21,600 --> 01:30:19,000
course I don't like I don't like what

1935
01:30:23,610 --> 01:30:21,610
MUFON has had to do in terms of keeping

1936
01:30:25,770 --> 01:30:23,620
the doors open but then again I'm not

1937
01:30:27,510 --> 01:30:25,780
Jan Harz an and I don't know what the

1938
01:30:30,810 --> 01:30:27,520
bills are that come in every month you

1939
01:30:33,290 --> 01:30:30,820
know people think that having a UFO

1940
01:30:36,600 --> 01:30:33,300
investigator at your beck and call

1941
01:30:38,550 --> 01:30:36,610
exists in a vacuum it doesn't you know

1942
01:30:41,040 --> 01:30:38,560
people who do this our volunteers

1943
01:30:45,300 --> 01:30:41,050
they're taking time out of their lives

1944
01:30:47,160 --> 01:30:45,310
to do this research I would like MUFON

1945
01:30:49,290 --> 01:30:47,170
to appreciate that more because I think

1946
01:30:51,990 --> 01:30:49,300
I still think that sometimes they don't

1947
01:30:52,480 --> 01:30:52,000
appreciate the level of commitment that

1948
01:30:55,000 --> 01:30:52,490
their vows

1949
01:30:58,060 --> 01:30:55,010
tears have but back to my particular

1950
01:30:59,590 --> 01:30:58,070
story I was very angry and I left

1951
01:31:02,020 --> 01:30:59,600
because I thought that things are just

1952
01:31:04,630 --> 01:31:02,030
going nowhere well immediately I was

1953
01:31:07,590 --> 01:31:04,640
courted by two or three different other

1954
01:31:11,890 --> 01:31:07,600
UFO organizations that were filled with

1955
01:31:13,570 --> 01:31:11,900
people who had been in MUFON who etc you

1956
01:31:15,490 --> 01:31:13,580
know and I don't really want to get into

1957
01:31:17,500 --> 01:31:15,500
all the details of that either other

1958
01:31:19,990 --> 01:31:17,510
than they all had one thing in common

1959
01:31:22,930 --> 01:31:20,000
everybody was talking of either about

1960
01:31:24,880 --> 01:31:22,940
old cases I remember one group they

1961
01:31:26,920 --> 01:31:24,890
wanted to talk about which old cases

1962
01:31:30,040 --> 01:31:26,930
they were going to reinvestigate and

1963
01:31:33,040 --> 01:31:30,050
that degenerated into a big argument and

1964
01:31:36,340 --> 01:31:33,050
I thought well where is this going

1965
01:31:39,190 --> 01:31:36,350
eventually I realized if I wanted to

1966
01:31:42,580 --> 01:31:39,200
investigate UFO cases I had to have a

1967
01:31:45,280 --> 01:31:42,590
source of information and I just wasn't

1968
01:31:48,100 --> 01:31:45,290
getting it from anywhere then in the

1969
01:31:50,560 --> 01:31:48,110
meantime I moved from Olympia Washington

1970
01:31:54,600 --> 01:31:50,570
to Port Townsend about a hundred miles

1971
01:31:57,700 --> 01:31:54,610
and this happens to be the same place

1972
01:31:59,800 --> 01:31:57,710
where the new director of MUFON in

1973
01:32:02,800 --> 01:31:59,810
Washington State lives in fact that's

1974
01:32:05,650 --> 01:32:02,810
not a big secret I recommended her for

1975
01:32:08,050 --> 01:32:05,660
the position she was the obvious choice

1976
01:32:11,590 --> 01:32:08,060
because of her level of commitment to

1977
01:32:14,820 --> 01:32:11,600
getting people together to meet on a

1978
01:32:18,370 --> 01:32:14,830
regular basis and talk about UFOs

1979
01:32:20,380 --> 01:32:18,380
Bigfoot the paranormal whatever she has

1980
01:32:23,080 --> 01:32:20,390
an extremely successful meeting group

1981
01:32:26,080 --> 01:32:23,090
and that's what you look for when you

1982
01:32:28,540 --> 01:32:26,090
want somebody to do organization if I

1983
01:32:30,790 --> 01:32:28,550
was going to participate at all in the

1984
01:32:33,070 --> 01:32:30,800
UFO field I've got to have some new

1985
01:32:36,370 --> 01:32:33,080
information I've got to investigate

1986
01:32:40,210 --> 01:32:36,380
cases I can't just keep sitting on the

1987
01:32:43,030 --> 01:32:40,220
sidelines and going over old stuff much

1988
01:32:45,280 --> 01:32:43,040
as I love the history as we've already

1989
01:32:47,710 --> 01:32:45,290
discussed I do love the history of

1990
01:32:50,590 --> 01:32:47,720
ufology but I don't want to be

1991
01:32:52,090 --> 01:32:50,600
completely marginalized and out on the

1992
01:32:54,340 --> 01:32:52,100
fringe of everything I want to be

1993
01:32:58,000 --> 01:32:54,350
involved I also want to be ready in case

1994
01:33:00,040 --> 01:32:58,010
we do get another major event and of

1995
01:33:05,670 --> 01:33:00,050
course Washington state that has

1996
01:33:07,790 --> 01:33:05,680
happened before On June 24th of 1947

1997
01:33:11,760 --> 01:33:07,800
about a week and a half before Roswell

1998
01:33:14,670 --> 01:33:11,770
Kenneth Arnold observed a formation of

1999
01:33:18,120 --> 01:33:14,680
saucer-shaped craft Crescent saucer

2000
01:33:20,940 --> 01:33:18,130
shapes going across Mount Rainier in

2001
01:33:23,040 --> 01:33:20,950
broad daylight and that led to the

2002
01:33:25,520 --> 01:33:23,050
creation of the phrase flying saucer

2003
01:33:27,990 --> 01:33:25,530
that was a key event in UFO history

2004
01:33:30,570 --> 01:33:28,000
right here in Washington State which is

2005
01:33:33,240 --> 01:33:30,580
why when I've gone and lectured in other

2006
01:33:33,930 --> 01:33:33,250
places I've jokingly said they came here

2007
01:33:36,270 --> 01:33:33,940
first

2008
01:33:39,120 --> 01:33:36,280
Tim's bragging rights James that's from

2009
01:33:40,920 --> 01:33:39,130
striking rights right well honestly when

2010
01:33:44,400 --> 01:33:40,930
we study you and I foes we could go back

2011
01:33:46,470 --> 01:33:44,410
you know way far into history oh yeah

2012
01:33:49,680 --> 01:33:46,480
this was the modern UFO era as we've

2013
01:33:51,300 --> 01:33:49,690
sort of coined it yes and it's fun it's

2014
01:33:54,510 --> 01:33:51,310
fun to tell people that but the main

2015
01:33:56,940 --> 01:33:54,520
point the main point is I guess I rejoin

2016
01:33:59,700 --> 01:33:56,950
MUFON because I it's not enough for me

2017
01:34:02,070 --> 01:33:59,710
to just sit on the sidelines and I want

2018
01:34:05,480 --> 01:34:02,080
to be involved and MUFON does contain

2019
01:34:07,920 --> 01:34:05,490
all kinds of people and could it be

2020
01:34:10,890 --> 01:34:07,930
infiltrated by the government it most

2021
01:34:13,410 --> 01:34:10,900
certainly probably has been and that's

2022
01:34:15,750 --> 01:34:13,420
no big secret because anybody can join

2023
01:34:17,850 --> 01:34:15,760
MUFON you know could you get in there as

2024
01:34:20,460 --> 01:34:17,860
a benefactor and donate a large amount

2025
01:34:21,600 --> 01:34:20,470
of money and influence something yes you

2026
01:34:25,380 --> 01:34:21,610
probably could

2027
01:34:29,130 --> 01:34:25,390
so unfortunately MUFON is the per or

2028
01:34:32,070 --> 01:34:29,140
fortunately MUFON is the primary game in

2029
01:34:36,090 --> 01:34:32,080
town if you want to investigate current

2030
01:34:39,240 --> 01:34:36,100
UFO cases and I just wasn't getting

2031
01:34:42,660 --> 01:34:39,250
anything worth investigating any other

2032
01:34:46,290 --> 01:34:42,670
way it's a platform and it's as good or

2033
01:34:49,050 --> 01:34:46,300
as bad as the quality of the people in

2034
01:34:51,630 --> 01:34:49,060
the organization where you are it's a

2035
01:34:54,510 --> 01:34:51,640
national organization and it's sort of

2036
01:34:57,330 --> 01:34:54,520
like I haven't renounced my citizenship

2037
01:34:59,370 --> 01:34:57,340
in the United States yet you know and I

2038
01:35:01,500 --> 01:34:59,380
still have hope for the future and I

2039
01:35:04,290 --> 01:35:01,510
said I think there are a lot of good

2040
01:35:07,200 --> 01:35:04,300
people in MUFON I also think there's

2041
01:35:10,280 --> 01:35:07,210
some pretty shoddy people it's it's a

2042
01:35:12,720 --> 01:35:10,290
mixed bag you're not going to get a pure

2043
01:35:15,060 --> 01:35:12,730
organization in the field of ufology

2044
01:35:18,270 --> 01:35:15,070
that's going to be all things to all

2045
01:35:19,500 --> 01:35:18,280
people it's not going to happen I've

2046
01:35:21,930 --> 01:35:19,510
only got so many

2047
01:35:25,319 --> 01:35:21,940
years that I'm going to be around anyway

2048
01:35:28,529 --> 01:35:25,329
and I can either be moan that fact or I

2049
01:35:32,310 --> 01:35:28,539
can do what I can to do something

2050
01:35:35,580 --> 01:35:32,320
positive where I am so when when all was

2051
01:35:38,040 --> 01:35:35,590
said and done rejoining MUFON I think

2052
01:35:39,629 --> 01:35:38,050
was a good decision now I know some

2053
01:35:42,330 --> 01:35:39,639
people are going to claim him I betrayed

2054
01:35:44,939 --> 01:35:42,340
my principles and all of that and I

2055
01:35:47,100 --> 01:35:44,949
would say I think I made my point the

2056
01:35:48,270 --> 01:35:47,110
message was clear like we're not going

2057
01:35:50,520 --> 01:35:48,280
to stand for

2058
01:35:52,410 --> 01:35:50,530
first of all blatant racism within an

2059
01:35:55,350 --> 01:35:52,420
organization which we also should

2060
01:35:58,109 --> 01:35:55,360
mention this happens in any organization

2061
01:35:59,220 --> 01:35:58,119
this isn't just ufology or MUFON this

2062
01:36:01,459 --> 01:35:59,230
happens everywhere

2063
01:36:03,209 --> 01:36:01,469
no one's rest on the same page

2064
01:36:05,399 --> 01:36:03,219
principles are different for every

2065
01:36:09,509 --> 01:36:05,409
member involved with any organization

2066
01:36:11,189 --> 01:36:09,519
values political stances everything you

2067
01:36:14,370 --> 01:36:11,199
know that that's kind of the beauty of

2068
01:36:17,430 --> 01:36:14,380
this country but also the ugliness comes

2069
01:36:19,620 --> 01:36:17,440
out as well so again I think you're

2070
01:36:22,589 --> 01:36:19,630
correct and saying you made your point

2071
01:36:25,350 --> 01:36:22,599
now it's time to make change and that

2072
01:36:27,689 --> 01:36:25,360
can only come if you know instead of

2073
01:36:30,270 --> 01:36:27,699
ignoring the problem trying to change it

2074
01:36:32,939 --> 01:36:30,280
so I I think that message is loud and

2075
01:36:35,370 --> 01:36:32,949
clear for sure so let's do something

2076
01:36:36,750 --> 01:36:35,380
constructive that's you know that's what

2077
01:36:39,629 --> 01:36:36,760
I want to do and I still want to

2078
01:36:41,430 --> 01:36:39,639
investigate UFOs and I I still love the

2079
01:36:44,069 --> 01:36:41,440
subject and I want to talk about Roswell

2080
01:36:47,339 --> 01:36:44,079
and I want to be involved as much as I

2081
01:36:51,330 --> 01:36:47,349
can but I'm real I'm realistic about the

2082
01:36:52,919 --> 01:36:51,340
limitations maybe a little cynical never

2083
01:36:55,439 --> 01:36:52,929
hurts it never hurts to have a little

2084
01:36:57,509 --> 01:36:55,449
bit of that yeah and maybe that's sort

2085
01:36:59,609 --> 01:36:57,519
of a good way I know you mentioned that

2086
01:37:02,399 --> 01:36:59,619
you wanted to talk about things that are

2087
01:37:04,350 --> 01:37:02,409
currently going on yeah I mean that's a

2088
01:37:07,379 --> 01:37:04,360
big thing with this whole field is we're

2089
01:37:09,720 --> 01:37:07,389
so stuck with these historical cases

2090
01:37:11,490 --> 01:37:09,730
that a lot of people ask well what's

2091
01:37:14,069 --> 01:37:11,500
going on now why don't we have these

2092
01:37:15,839 --> 01:37:14,079
things happening now we do we do and I

2093
01:37:18,540 --> 01:37:15,849
think MUFON is the place to go for

2094
01:37:20,669 --> 01:37:18,550
current case reports so what do you make

2095
01:37:23,790 --> 01:37:20,679
of that whole argument that UFOs are

2096
01:37:26,700 --> 01:37:23,800
kind of dead that this is a historical

2097
01:37:29,609 --> 01:37:26,710
subject at this point well it is to a

2098
01:37:31,709 --> 01:37:29,619
degree always going to be a historical

2099
01:37:33,209 --> 01:37:31,719
subject because we're trying to

2100
01:37:35,430 --> 01:37:33,219
understand it completely mister

2101
01:37:38,700 --> 01:37:35,440
is phenomena that is still occurring

2102
01:37:41,189 --> 01:37:38,710
only we have to try and put it in some

2103
01:37:43,649 --> 01:37:41,199
kind of context and obviously we have to

2104
01:37:46,379 --> 01:37:43,659
turn to history to do that I mean I just

2105
01:37:49,890 --> 01:37:46,389
since I've been back I mean that this is

2106
01:37:52,919 --> 01:37:49,900
so classic for the UFO field I get this

2107
01:37:56,209 --> 01:37:52,929
case the gentleman is he works for a

2108
01:38:00,959 --> 01:37:56,219
high-tech company highly educated man

2109
01:38:04,140 --> 01:38:00,969
zero background in UFOs and he's taking

2110
01:38:07,080 --> 01:38:04,150
a walk where he works in Vancouver

2111
01:38:11,569 --> 01:38:07,090
Washington in broad daylight on a nice

2112
01:38:15,209 --> 01:38:11,579
day he sees a circular metallic craft

2113
01:38:16,919 --> 01:38:15,219
come across the sky and he's standing

2114
01:38:17,910 --> 01:38:16,929
there watching this and what really

2115
01:38:20,700 --> 01:38:17,920
dumbfounded

2116
01:38:26,609 --> 01:38:20,710
is that it's scintillating strange

2117
01:38:29,520 --> 01:38:26,619
colors and he himself is also a pilot he

2118
01:38:32,160 --> 01:38:29,530
is a small plane pilot and he's flown in

2119
01:38:36,149 --> 01:38:32,170
the very same area and he manages to

2120
01:38:39,239 --> 01:38:36,159
take a cell phone video of the object

2121
01:38:41,790 --> 01:38:39,249
and that so he contacts MUFON because he

2122
01:38:42,029 --> 01:38:41,800
wants to know if anybody else has seen

2123
01:38:44,399 --> 01:38:42,039
it

2124
01:38:48,000 --> 01:38:44,409
and of course when all is said and done

2125
01:38:51,000 --> 01:38:48,010
nobody else has seen it so this is what

2126
01:38:54,270 --> 01:38:51,010
drives you crazy with UFOs here I've got

2127
01:38:57,859 --> 01:38:54,280
a highly qualified witness with no

2128
01:39:00,870 --> 01:38:57,869
biases no previous background in UFOs

2129
01:39:04,410 --> 01:39:00,880
who sees something and even photographs

2130
01:39:06,509 --> 01:39:04,420
it and he can't possibly explain it what

2131
01:39:09,390 --> 01:39:06,519
are we gonna do with that how many of

2132
01:39:11,089 --> 01:39:09,400
those cases are there I think they're

2133
01:39:14,430 --> 01:39:11,099
going on all the time

2134
01:39:16,979 --> 01:39:14,440
absolutely and I mean up until the

2135
01:39:19,709 --> 01:39:16,989
present day dreams we have cases

2136
01:39:22,379 --> 01:39:19,719
happening throughout the 2000s which we

2137
01:39:25,799 --> 01:39:22,389
we haven't heard much about before this

2138
01:39:28,589 --> 01:39:25,809
Pentagon UFO program came to the public

2139
01:39:30,959 --> 01:39:28,599
eye so I'd love to sort of dovetail into

2140
01:39:33,330 --> 01:39:30,969
that here so you know within the last

2141
01:39:35,399 --> 01:39:33,340
year and a half or so we learned that

2142
01:39:37,259 --> 01:39:35,409
project Bluebook was not the last time

2143
01:39:39,930 --> 01:39:37,269
the government was involved with the UFO

2144
01:39:42,209 --> 01:39:39,940
investigations we had this program a tip

2145
01:39:45,479 --> 01:39:42,219
it's gone under a few other acronyms as

2146
01:39:46,659 --> 01:39:45,489
well where the Pentagon was studying

2147
01:39:48,370 --> 01:39:46,669
UFOs and they

2148
01:39:50,080 --> 01:39:48,380
was brought to our attention through the

2149
01:39:53,049 --> 01:39:50,090
New York Times and through this new

2150
01:39:55,209 --> 01:39:53,059
organization to the Stars Academy now

2151
01:39:57,759 --> 01:39:55,219
this is all a huge convoluted story

2152
01:40:00,009 --> 01:39:57,769
which we have covered in the past but I

2153
01:40:02,350 --> 01:40:00,019
want to sort of wrap things up here with

2154
01:40:04,810 --> 01:40:02,360
your thoughts on first the Pentagon UFO

2155
01:40:06,729 --> 01:40:04,820
program and then to the stars Academy

2156
01:40:09,639 --> 01:40:06,739
what do you make of all this having been

2157
01:40:13,359 --> 01:40:09,649
involved with the UFO studies for

2158
01:40:16,179 --> 01:40:13,369
decades now well unfortunately you can't

2159
01:40:18,939 --> 01:40:16,189
have a government program that isn't

2160
01:40:23,169 --> 01:40:18,949
somehow rooted in politics and as I

2161
01:40:25,509 --> 01:40:23,179
recall part of this money that was used

2162
01:40:27,330 --> 01:40:25,519
to finance I believe it was under the

2163
01:40:31,239 --> 01:40:27,340
endorsement of Senator Harry Reid

2164
01:40:34,089 --> 01:40:31,249
correctly from Nevada and this was I

2165
01:40:37,209 --> 01:40:34,099
think intended to be a plumb for Robert

2166
01:40:39,850 --> 01:40:37,219
Bigelow so if you subtract out that part

2167
01:40:41,949 --> 01:40:39,860
whatever part that is and you're left

2168
01:40:44,560 --> 01:40:41,959
with this research organization number

2169
01:40:48,250 --> 01:40:44,570
one it doesn't seem like a whole lot of

2170
01:40:49,689 --> 01:40:48,260
money for a UFO research project 22

2171
01:40:51,580 --> 01:40:49,699
million sounds like a lot to me but

2172
01:40:55,089 --> 01:40:51,590
you're correct in terms of government

2173
01:40:57,850 --> 01:40:55,099
funding this is a drop in the hat right

2174
01:41:00,580 --> 01:40:57,860
most and then you start subtracting out

2175
01:41:03,819 --> 01:41:00,590
you know whatever was funneled to

2176
01:41:06,850 --> 01:41:03,829
Bigelow you know what's left and then I

2177
01:41:08,560 --> 01:41:06,860
have to look at this whole thing I have

2178
01:41:10,750 --> 01:41:08,570
a lot of trouble with it it looks to me

2179
01:41:14,379 --> 01:41:10,760
if I had the one image that comes to my

2180
01:41:16,419 --> 01:41:14,389
mind is Lucy and Charlie Brown and the

2181
01:41:19,149 --> 01:41:16,429
football and the football of course is

2182
01:41:22,330 --> 01:41:19,159
UFO disclosure the thing that is so

2183
01:41:24,850 --> 01:41:22,340
weird to me is I look at the

2184
01:41:28,719 --> 01:41:24,860
organization of the to the stars Academy

2185
01:41:30,759 --> 01:41:28,729
and and this is no secret you can go on

2186
01:41:33,429 --> 01:41:30,769
their website and look at the curriculum

2187
01:41:36,909 --> 01:41:33,439
vitae of the people that are in the

2188
01:41:40,600 --> 01:41:36,919
organization and it's pretty stellar I

2189
01:41:43,810 --> 01:41:40,610
mean you've got like 30 year veteran CIA

2190
01:41:46,449 --> 01:41:43,820
agent decorated you've got people

2191
01:41:50,040 --> 01:41:46,459
working on clearly who have worked on

2192
01:41:53,409 --> 01:41:50,050
clearly very classified research and

2193
01:41:57,250 --> 01:41:53,419
suddenly they are now retired and

2194
01:42:00,310 --> 01:41:57,260
they've all working together with Tom

2195
01:42:09,399 --> 01:42:00,320
DeLonge to bring about UFO

2196
01:42:11,979 --> 01:42:09,409
disclosure hmm I I see it as a scripted

2197
01:42:15,430 --> 01:42:11,989
scene in a horror movie and the scene

2198
01:42:17,890 --> 01:42:15,440
goes like this the little boy is coming

2199
01:42:21,069 --> 01:42:17,900
home at dinnertime as the Sun is going

2200
01:42:25,330 --> 01:42:21,079
down and he comes up to the back door

2201
01:42:28,689 --> 01:42:25,340
and he's greeted by his mother and he's

2202
01:42:31,870 --> 01:42:28,699
telling his mom mom look who I met today

2203
01:42:35,770 --> 01:42:31,880
while I was out and when you look behind

2204
01:42:38,589 --> 01:42:35,780
him there are like some very large and

2205
01:42:42,010 --> 01:42:38,599
extremely ominous looking wolves

2206
01:42:45,069 --> 01:42:42,020
kind of like wolfin you know the old the

2207
01:42:46,839 --> 01:42:45,079
old horror movie and novel it just looks

2208
01:42:48,040 --> 01:42:46,849
to me I don't and was I don't

2209
01:42:50,950 --> 01:42:48,050
necessarily think these people are

2210
01:42:53,200 --> 01:42:50,960
sinister I'm not saying that they're

2211
01:42:54,850 --> 01:42:53,210
only sinister to the point of view that

2212
01:42:57,970 --> 01:42:54,860
I don't think they're really revealing

2213
01:43:00,640 --> 01:42:57,980
how and why they're involved in the to

2214
01:43:02,830 --> 01:43:00,650
the stars Academy they're not telling us

2215
01:43:04,899 --> 01:43:02,840
the truth can you imagine what the

2216
01:43:08,020 --> 01:43:04,909
non-disclosure agreement looks like for

2217
01:43:11,580 --> 01:43:08,030
a 30-year CIA agent so if this guy is

2218
01:43:14,560 --> 01:43:11,590
out here being involved in disclosure

2219
01:43:17,260 --> 01:43:14,570
it's already been vetted you know

2220
01:43:19,510 --> 01:43:17,270
somebody high up said okay do that and

2221
01:43:21,910 --> 01:43:19,520
they don't do that just for the fun of

2222
01:43:24,609 --> 01:43:21,920
it they don't do that because we're

2223
01:43:28,060 --> 01:43:24,619
curious they do that because there's

2224
01:43:30,959 --> 01:43:28,070
some reason for it and so once again I

2225
01:43:34,209 --> 01:43:30,969
think we're being played some way and

2226
01:43:37,750 --> 01:43:34,219
much as I don't necessarily like the guy

2227
01:43:40,930 --> 01:43:37,760
I gotta give the guy kudos Robert Shafer

2228
01:43:43,359 --> 01:43:40,940
who is an arch UFO skeptic I don't know

2229
01:43:45,729 --> 01:43:43,369
if you've seen any of his work oh yes I

2230
01:43:48,910 --> 01:43:45,739
believe he's uh he's definitely putting

2231
01:43:51,550 --> 01:43:48,920
me to task a few times so oh yeah well

2232
01:43:54,100 --> 01:43:51,560
aware well respected in many ways yeah

2233
01:43:56,439 --> 01:43:54,110
we need him we do need him in this field

2234
01:43:59,680 --> 01:43:56,449
no matter what anyone thinks he did a

2235
01:44:02,290 --> 01:43:59,690
thorough piece of detective work on the

2236
01:44:04,780 --> 01:44:02,300
to the stars Academy like actually went

2237
01:44:08,129 --> 01:44:04,790
to the place that was listed as their

2238
01:44:10,799 --> 01:44:08,139
office and started asking questions and

2239
01:44:13,399 --> 01:44:10,809
I think the financing of this whole

2240
01:44:16,379 --> 01:44:13,409
thing is kind of it's it's suspicious

2241
01:44:19,049 --> 01:44:16,389
well yeah I mean up until this past week

2242
01:44:22,350 --> 01:44:19,059
we had articles coming out saying that

2243
01:44:24,859 --> 01:44:22,360
they're in a 37 million dollar deficit

2244
01:44:27,359 --> 01:44:24,869
now this is being debated by the

2245
01:44:30,600 --> 01:44:27,369
organization saying we're a startup

2246
01:44:32,219 --> 01:44:30,610
company you know we just like Amazon you

2247
01:44:34,799 --> 01:44:32,229
lose a lot of money before you make

2248
01:44:37,969 --> 01:44:34,809
money or can really make any headway so

2249
01:44:41,179 --> 01:44:37,979
I don't know James the whole financial

2250
01:44:44,580 --> 01:44:41,189
structure of this organization is so

2251
01:44:46,830 --> 01:44:44,590
weird and convoluted many people have

2252
01:44:49,560 --> 01:44:46,840
tried to break it down but when it comes

2253
01:44:51,359 --> 01:44:49,570
down to it it's no doubt to me that

2254
01:44:54,179 --> 01:44:51,369
these people are out to make money and

2255
01:44:57,419 --> 01:44:54,189
they will use the UFO topic to do that

2256
01:45:00,629 --> 01:44:57,429
and maybe just maybe we'll get some

2257
01:45:04,020 --> 01:45:00,639
interesting videos or in I know they're

2258
01:45:05,639 --> 01:45:04,030
now looking at metamaterials maybe we'll

2259
01:45:06,929 --> 01:45:05,649
get some viable information out of this

2260
01:45:09,179 --> 01:45:06,939
but at the end of the day it's a

2261
01:45:11,489 --> 01:45:09,189
business there you go and then actually

2262
01:45:13,859 --> 01:45:11,499
when you bring up the metamaterial okay

2263
01:45:17,370 --> 01:45:13,869
I looked at that if it's the one that I

2264
01:45:19,350 --> 01:45:17,380
think of I'm thinking of that is exactly

2265
01:45:23,419 --> 01:45:19,360
the same metal that Linda Moulton Howe

2266
01:45:27,029 --> 01:45:23,429
had back in 2000 and I was there in

2267
01:45:30,120 --> 01:45:27,039
Newport Beach California with a group of

2268
01:45:34,169 --> 01:45:30,130
researchers I was invited to present the

2269
01:45:37,350 --> 01:45:34,179
June story to Linda Moulton Howe and oh

2270
01:45:37,859 --> 01:45:37,360
there was a whole crew there was Jim

2271
01:45:41,069 --> 01:45:37,869
Marrs

2272
01:45:44,339 --> 01:45:41,079
and many of the key people were in that

2273
01:45:47,939 --> 01:45:44,349
room I was really I was amazed to get to

2274
01:45:49,889 --> 01:45:47,949
meet them face to face and Linda had a

2275
01:45:54,589 --> 01:45:49,899
piece of that weird metal that she

2276
01:45:57,600 --> 01:45:54,599
passed around it was multiple layers of

2277
01:45:59,969 --> 01:45:57,610
bismuth metal and magnesium and it

2278
01:46:02,549 --> 01:45:59,979
looked really weird when you held it in

2279
01:46:05,040 --> 01:46:02,559
your hand it seemed it felt artificial

2280
01:46:09,149 --> 01:46:05,050
to me I mean just looking at it like it

2281
01:46:11,969 --> 01:46:09,159
was some like somebody had manufacturer

2282
01:46:14,100 --> 01:46:11,979
they there was no record of who had made

2283
01:46:16,939 --> 01:46:14,110
this or why and there was a video

2284
01:46:20,399 --> 01:46:16,949
showing that when it was subjected to a

2285
01:46:21,760 --> 01:46:20,409
magnetic field and to certain radio

2286
01:46:24,490 --> 01:46:21,770
frequencies

2287
01:46:26,590 --> 01:46:24,500
that it would float and move now of

2288
01:46:29,590 --> 01:46:26,600
course there was no vetting on the video

2289
01:46:32,530 --> 01:46:29,600
I don't know when you know we only know

2290
01:46:34,720 --> 01:46:32,540
what we were told we I'd I can't tell

2291
01:46:37,300 --> 01:46:34,730
you for certain that that video is

2292
01:46:39,100 --> 01:46:37,310
legitimate or where it came from but

2293
01:46:42,310 --> 01:46:39,110
that's what we were told then and that

2294
01:46:44,650 --> 01:46:42,320
was metal that was sent to her when she

2295
01:46:48,640 --> 01:46:44,660
was working with art Bell and it

2296
01:46:50,920 --> 01:46:48,650
supposedly came out of grandpas box who

2297
01:46:53,740 --> 01:46:50,930
was a military veteran who was in the

2298
01:46:56,530 --> 01:46:53,750
southwest who was obviously involved in

2299
01:46:59,500 --> 01:46:56,540
the cleanup of crash retrieval debris

2300
01:47:01,450 --> 01:46:59,510
but there was no name Messiah sign on

2301
01:47:03,280 --> 01:47:01,460
the letter the person said I have a

2302
01:47:05,620 --> 01:47:03,290
pension too and I don't want to lose it

2303
01:47:07,750 --> 01:47:05,630
and just like you know many of these

2304
01:47:10,660 --> 01:47:07,760
cases we'll never know the true source

2305
01:47:12,460 --> 01:47:10,670
where it originally came from to the

2306
01:47:14,980 --> 01:47:12,470
stars claims they have materials from

2307
01:47:17,470 --> 01:47:14,990
the Rendlesham incident how do we know

2308
01:47:18,940 --> 01:47:17,480
like we how we have nothing to

2309
01:47:20,980 --> 01:47:18,950
corroborate that these materials

2310
01:47:24,160 --> 01:47:20,990
actually came from where they say they

2311
01:47:26,890 --> 01:47:24,170
came so at the end of exams yeah I'm

2312
01:47:29,410 --> 01:47:26,900
with you on the whole material thing now

2313
01:47:31,510 --> 01:47:29,420
we had some fascinating videos come to

2314
01:47:33,430 --> 01:47:31,520
light you know this what was it the

2315
01:47:36,820 --> 01:47:33,440
gimbal footage I think it's been coined

2316
01:47:39,730 --> 01:47:36,830
right the Tic Tac incident all very

2317
01:47:42,130 --> 01:47:39,740
intriguing and things I as a younger UFO

2318
01:47:44,830 --> 01:47:42,140
researcher had no knowledge of prior to

2319
01:47:47,860 --> 01:47:44,840
Tom DeLonge and his efforts and work so

2320
01:47:49,720 --> 01:47:47,870
this was all new to me but like you said

2321
01:47:51,400 --> 01:47:49,730
many of these players went to the stars

2322
01:47:54,550 --> 01:47:51,410
have been involved with other

2323
01:47:57,220 --> 01:47:54,560
organizations in the past that yielded

2324
01:47:59,350 --> 01:47:57,230
no results so you do really have to

2325
01:48:02,140 --> 01:47:59,360
wonder what's what's at stake here

2326
01:48:04,210 --> 01:48:02,150
they're promising us huge explosive

2327
01:48:06,340 --> 01:48:04,220
bombshells within the next year they

2328
01:48:08,350 --> 01:48:06,350
promise this from the very start but I

2329
01:48:11,320 --> 01:48:08,360
don't know I don't know what to do or

2330
01:48:14,200 --> 01:48:11,330
what to make of it myself I think you

2331
01:48:17,350 --> 01:48:14,210
just have to you have to always maintain

2332
01:48:20,310 --> 01:48:17,360
your skepticism it's it's my favorite

2333
01:48:23,350 --> 01:48:20,320
prosecutor when he would charge a jury

2334
01:48:24,670 --> 01:48:23,360
he would always close by saying ladies

2335
01:48:26,770 --> 01:48:24,680
and gentlemen of the jury

2336
01:48:31,270 --> 01:48:26,780
don't leave your common sense at the

2337
01:48:35,100 --> 01:48:31,280
door in other words always be clear in

2338
01:48:38,310 --> 01:48:35,110
your own mind what evidence

2339
01:48:41,810 --> 01:48:38,320
has some corroboration and what evidence

2340
01:48:43,919 --> 01:48:41,820
are alleged evidence is just speculation

2341
01:48:47,760 --> 01:48:43,929
when you're an investigator or

2342
01:48:50,300 --> 01:48:47,770
researcher you got to know when you are

2343
01:48:53,280 --> 01:48:50,310
dealing with unverified information

2344
01:48:56,580 --> 01:48:53,290
that's probably my number one criticism

2345
01:48:59,300 --> 01:48:56,590
of many people in the UFO field is that

2346
01:49:03,419 --> 01:48:59,310
they don't admit when things are not

2347
01:49:06,000 --> 01:49:03,429
verified and they they lose touch with

2348
01:49:09,180 --> 01:49:06,010
reality if they see something on the

2349
01:49:11,189 --> 01:49:09,190
internet it looks good it looks sexy it

2350
01:49:13,530 --> 01:49:11,199
seems to point the way to some big

2351
01:49:15,810 --> 01:49:13,540
revelation and so they're all over it

2352
01:49:18,870 --> 01:49:15,820
saying oh yeah this has got to be it

2353
01:49:21,300 --> 01:49:18,880
well it may not be it you know we've all

2354
01:49:23,430 --> 01:49:21,310
been here before that's the reason for

2355
01:49:25,620 --> 01:49:23,440
history hopefully is so you don't keep

2356
01:49:26,359 --> 01:49:25,630
making the same mistakes over and over

2357
01:49:28,740 --> 01:49:26,369
again

2358
01:49:31,229 --> 01:49:28,750
exactly and that's you know what we have

2359
01:49:34,350 --> 01:49:31,239
to keep in mind moving forward with a

2360
01:49:36,840 --> 01:49:34,360
new generation of UFO investigators so

2361
01:49:39,330 --> 01:49:36,850
kind of closing things up here James

2362
01:49:42,149 --> 01:49:39,340
if younger people who are interested in

2363
01:49:44,129 --> 01:49:42,159
UFOs which I've met many if they want to

2364
01:49:47,250 --> 01:49:44,139
get involved where do you think they

2365
01:49:49,290 --> 01:49:47,260
should turn to do that I think number

2366
01:49:51,660 --> 01:49:49,300
one you got to be well-informed you got

2367
01:49:54,120 --> 01:49:51,670
to be willing to read and study on your

2368
01:49:56,609 --> 01:49:54,130
own and that means you got to dig out

2369
01:49:59,189 --> 01:49:56,619
some of the key historical works in

2370
01:50:02,490 --> 01:49:59,199
ufology and there are some really really

2371
01:50:05,040 --> 01:50:02,500
good ones any come to mind that you can

2372
01:50:07,260 --> 01:50:05,050
really don't turn to right now put me on

2373
01:50:09,450 --> 01:50:07,270
this plot here oh no that's not a

2374
01:50:11,189 --> 01:50:09,460
problem I thought you might ask I will

2375
01:50:13,709 --> 01:50:11,199
tell you the one that got me going more

2376
01:50:15,479 --> 01:50:13,719
than any other book and it came out

2377
01:50:19,109 --> 01:50:15,489
quite a long time ago but you can still

2378
01:50:21,540 --> 01:50:19,119
get copies of it it came out in 1984 it

2379
01:50:24,090 --> 01:50:21,550
was called clear intent the government

2380
01:50:26,280 --> 01:50:24,100
cover-up of the UFO experience what does

2381
01:50:30,540 --> 01:50:26,290
the government know about UFOs and why

2382
01:50:31,590 --> 01:50:30,550
won't it tell us by Lawrence Fawcett fa

2383
01:50:36,479 --> 01:50:31,600
WCE

2384
01:50:38,609 --> 01:50:36,489
TT and Barry J Greenwood yes yes I have

2385
01:50:39,120 --> 01:50:38,619
that right on my shelf looking at it as

2386
01:50:43,439 --> 01:50:39,130
we speak

2387
01:50:47,010 --> 01:50:43,449
mine is dog-eared highlighted it's it's

2388
01:50:48,840 --> 01:50:47,020
a mess as it but it's it's a wonderful

2389
01:50:52,110 --> 01:50:48,850
book because it's based on

2390
01:50:54,750 --> 01:50:52,120
actual documents and that book will give

2391
01:50:57,360 --> 01:50:54,760
you a broad view of the UFO field it was

2392
01:51:00,440 --> 01:50:57,370
also published a second time under

2393
01:51:03,510 --> 01:51:00,450
another title called the UFO cover-up

2394
01:51:06,450 --> 01:51:03,520
another book if you can get it it's hard

2395
01:51:09,150 --> 01:51:06,460
to get it's called the missing times by

2396
01:51:10,800 --> 01:51:09,160
Terry Hansen he lived up here on

2397
01:51:14,100 --> 01:51:10,810
Bainbridge Island the died of a heart

2398
01:51:18,260 --> 01:51:14,110
attack several years ago the missing

2399
01:51:21,140 --> 01:51:18,270
times is the history of news media

2400
01:51:25,650 --> 01:51:21,150
complicity in the UFO cover-up

2401
01:51:27,450 --> 01:51:25,660
fascinating book then I would say if you

2402
01:51:30,480 --> 01:51:27,460
want to look at the way things are right

2403
01:51:34,170 --> 01:51:30,490
now there is one man out there he's

2404
01:51:36,960 --> 01:51:34,180
still it heavily involved an extreme

2405
01:51:40,170 --> 01:51:36,970
hard worker one of the most level-headed

2406
01:51:43,020 --> 01:51:40,180
and thorough researchers in this entire

2407
01:51:45,720 --> 01:51:43,030
field I cannot say enough about him his

2408
01:51:49,290 --> 01:51:45,730
name is David Marlar and his book

2409
01:51:52,350 --> 01:51:49,300
triangular UFOs an estimate of the

2410
01:51:55,500 --> 01:51:52,360
situation I believe is an absolute must

2411
01:51:57,900 --> 01:51:55,510
for anybody who wants to say that they

2412
01:52:01,680 --> 01:51:57,910
are seriously in touch with the UFO

2413
01:52:04,410 --> 01:52:01,690
phenomena and I would say then of course

2414
01:52:08,010 --> 01:52:04,420
if you really want to go down the rabbit

2415
01:52:12,410 --> 01:52:08,020
hole I would do UFOs and nukes with by

2416
01:52:14,730 --> 01:52:12,420
Robert Hastings which is the definitive

2417
01:52:17,610 --> 01:52:14,740
incredibly intricate relationship

2418
01:52:20,670 --> 01:52:17,620
between high quality UFO sightings and

2419
01:52:22,380 --> 01:52:20,680
all things nuclear they go together like

2420
01:52:25,230 --> 01:52:22,390
coffee and cream and then of course

2421
01:52:27,030 --> 01:52:25,240
Richard Dolan is another another

2422
01:52:30,060 --> 01:52:27,040
individual I have a huge amount of

2423
01:52:31,770 --> 01:52:30,070
respect for and if if you wanted to wet

2424
01:52:35,880 --> 01:52:31,780
your whistle and you just wanted to

2425
01:52:37,680 --> 01:52:35,890
start I would pick an older book I often

2426
01:52:39,150 --> 01:52:37,690
thought in when I first got involved in

2427
01:52:42,450 --> 01:52:39,160
this if I was going to teach a class in

2428
01:52:44,760 --> 01:52:42,460
UFOs I would use Jim Marrs book called

2429
01:52:47,460 --> 01:52:44,770
alien agenda I think that was one of the

2430
01:52:50,550 --> 01:52:47,470
first UFO books I ever got my hands on

2431
01:52:53,090 --> 01:52:50,560
is a 13 year old yeah really well

2432
01:52:56,510 --> 01:52:53,100
organized really straightforward

2433
01:53:00,510 --> 01:52:56,520
presentation definitely makes the case

2434
01:53:02,700 --> 01:53:00,520
Leslie Keens book on UFOs generals

2435
01:53:04,770 --> 01:53:02,710
pilots and government officials

2436
01:53:07,290 --> 01:53:04,780
go on the record see if you ask me a

2437
01:53:09,840 --> 01:53:07,300
question about what UFO books do I

2438
01:53:13,620 --> 01:53:09,850
really like I like documents and

2439
01:53:15,690 --> 01:53:13,630
testimony I like me I like meat on my

2440
01:53:17,970 --> 01:53:15,700
bun III don't want to be like that old

2441
01:53:20,190 --> 01:53:17,980
hamburger commercial where you have the

2442
01:53:24,170 --> 01:53:20,200
two elderly ladies who open the bun up

2443
01:53:27,420 --> 01:53:24,180
and they say where's the beef you know I

2444
01:53:30,390 --> 01:53:27,430
want a little evidence with my UFOs and

2445
01:53:32,610 --> 01:53:30,400
aliens yep some some ketchup maybe some

2446
01:53:36,479 --> 01:53:32,620
cheese let's uh let's get this going old

2447
01:53:39,479 --> 01:53:36,489
barbecue style yes I love that juice

2448
01:53:41,850 --> 01:53:39,489
well you know wrapping things up here is

2449
01:53:44,790 --> 01:53:41,860
there anything pivotal right now that

2450
01:53:46,650 --> 01:53:44,800
you're working on cases anything you're

2451
01:53:49,590 --> 01:53:46,660
willing to talk about before we leave

2452
01:53:51,959 --> 01:53:49,600
here not really that could be perfectly

2453
01:53:55,770 --> 01:53:51,969
honest I just went through a major move

2454
01:53:58,410 --> 01:53:55,780
and a serious health crisis and I'm

2455
01:54:00,690 --> 01:53:58,420
we're getting reestablished everything

2456
01:54:02,550 --> 01:54:00,700
is going along wonderfully and I'm

2457
01:54:06,030 --> 01:54:02,560
looking I'm looking forward to the

2458
01:54:09,030 --> 01:54:06,040
future good well I obviously my thoughts

2459
01:54:10,890 --> 01:54:09,040
and prayers of some higher power are

2460
01:54:14,160 --> 01:54:10,900
with you with all of that we all have to

2461
01:54:15,209 --> 01:54:14,170
deal with personal issues beyond the UFO

2462
01:54:18,630 --> 01:54:15,219
field as well

2463
01:54:20,940 --> 01:54:18,640
so yeah that's for sure well where can

2464
01:54:23,729 --> 01:54:20,950
we find out more about what you're up to

2465
01:54:26,970 --> 01:54:23,739
James well I do have I'm pretty active

2466
01:54:31,530 --> 01:54:26,980
on Facebook I would also invite people

2467
01:54:35,850 --> 01:54:31,540
to go to James Clarkson UFO comm I have

2468
01:54:44,490 --> 01:54:35,860
two email addresses UFO reality all one

2469
01:54:48,630 --> 01:54:44,500
word at comcast.net or UFO detective at

2470
01:54:50,340 --> 01:54:48,640
hush mail comm perfect well James I

2471
01:54:52,290 --> 01:54:50,350
can't thank you enough for coming on

2472
01:54:54,390 --> 01:54:52,300
today you know this has been an

2473
01:54:56,910 --> 01:54:54,400
interview I've been wanting to do since

2474
01:54:59,729 --> 01:54:56,920
I started somewhere in the skies and

2475
01:55:01,530 --> 01:54:59,739
after meeting you in person I knew you

2476
01:55:04,020 --> 01:55:01,540
were one of the the good people out

2477
01:55:07,200 --> 01:55:04,030
there fighting the good fight looking

2478
01:55:10,620 --> 01:55:07,210
for like we said that beef in the burger

2479
01:55:12,000 --> 01:55:10,630
that's right go that way and it was such

2480
01:55:14,850 --> 01:55:12,010
an honor to get you on to talk about

2481
01:55:16,470 --> 01:55:14,860
Jeanne Crain Roswell the future of

2482
01:55:18,840 --> 01:55:16,480
ufology and

2483
01:55:20,630 --> 01:55:18,850
just with this conversation alone it

2484
01:55:23,340 --> 01:55:20,640
shows me that the future is bright so

2485
01:55:25,800 --> 01:55:23,350
again my friend thank you so much for

2486
01:55:27,960 --> 01:55:25,810
coming on Thank You Ryan sincerely for

2487
01:55:30,060 --> 01:55:27,970
the work you're doing - that's it for

2488
01:55:32,880 --> 01:55:30,070
this week's episode again to check out

2489
01:55:36,450 --> 01:55:32,890
all of James Clarkson's work visit James

2490
01:55:38,610 --> 01:55:36,460
Clarkson UFO comm please take a few

2491
01:55:41,070 --> 01:55:38,620
moments to subscribe rate and review

2492
01:55:44,010 --> 01:55:41,080
somewhere in the skies on iTunes and

2493
01:55:46,560 --> 01:55:44,020
Apple podcasts even if you don't use

2494
01:55:48,930 --> 01:55:46,570
this platform to listen it remains the

2495
01:55:51,060 --> 01:55:48,940
largest podcast outlet and helps the

2496
01:55:54,540 --> 01:55:51,070
show find new listeners and gain

2497
01:55:57,060 --> 01:55:54,550
visibility thank you in advance check

2498
01:56:00,540 --> 01:55:57,070
out our merch store on T public comm

2499
01:56:02,550 --> 01:56:00,550
that's t ee public comm and search for

2500
01:56:04,950 --> 01:56:02,560
the somewhere in the sky store to help

2501
01:56:07,500 --> 01:56:04,960
the show monthly and receive tons of

2502
01:56:11,610 --> 01:56:07,510
bonus materials and rewards visit

2503
01:56:14,640 --> 01:56:11,620
patreon.com slash summer skies for past

2504
01:56:16,890 --> 01:56:14,650
episodes articles news and contact info

2505
01:56:20,190 --> 01:56:16,900
visit the official website somewhere in

2506
01:56:22,260 --> 01:56:20,200
the skies calm just a warning I'll be

2507
01:56:24,300 --> 01:56:22,270
gone next week for alien Con in

2508
01:56:25,979 --> 01:56:24,310
Baltimore and I'm not exactly sure

2509
01:56:28,950 --> 01:56:25,989
what's gonna happen with next week's

2510
01:56:31,950 --> 01:56:28,960
show I'll be extremely busy all weekend

2511
01:56:34,770 --> 01:56:31,960
hopefully I'll have a show we'll have to

2512
01:56:38,010 --> 01:56:34,780
see but either way just know you'll be

2513
01:56:40,830 --> 01:56:38,020
getting some awesome content live during

2514
01:56:42,720 --> 01:56:40,840
the event and certainly after keep

2515
01:56:46,530 --> 01:56:42,730
up-to-date with this on our Twitter page

2516
01:56:49,140 --> 01:56:46,540
at somewhere skies and on our Facebook

2517
01:56:51,330 --> 01:56:49,150
group somewhere in the skies podcast if

2518
01:56:53,550 --> 01:56:51,340
you're not yet a part of the group send

2519
01:56:56,729 --> 01:56:53,560
me an invite request and I'll let you in

2520
01:56:59,820 --> 01:56:56,739
thank you so much to the e1 podcast

2521
01:57:02,940 --> 01:56:59,830
network kgr a radio and most importantly

2522
01:57:05,490 --> 01:57:02,950
to you the listeners I'll see you here

2523
01:57:08,560 --> 01:57:05,500
soon and remember keep your feet on the

2524
01:57:15,920 --> 01:57:08,570
ground but never stop searching

2525
01:57:52,000 --> 01:57:31,010
[Music]

2526
01:57:54,470 --> 01:57:52,010
[Applause]

2527
01:57:56,240 --> 01:57:54,480
somewhere in the skies is produced by

2528
01:57:58,430 --> 01:57:56,250
Third Kind productions in association

2529
01:57:59,959 --> 01:57:58,440
with the entertainment one podcast